I too love Ellin's question...For me, a good question to start with is, 
"What do you think the author wants you to know from this text?"   After 
students guess, then they can read to find out.  :)

I have more to share, I'm just still trying to craft my thinking... You've 
really, really moved us all forward, Ellin; and for that, I thank you!

Peter Carpenter

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ellin Keene" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2008 12:15 PM
Subject: Re: [Understand] Cindy's dilemma


>I have had so many experiences similar to the one Cindy describes with her
> 6th graders where we talked about what it means to understand and it 
> becomes
> very circular or very author-based rather than reader-based.  Finally I
> started to ask kids to recall a time when it had been very difficult for
> them to learn something -- in school or out and I give a few examples. 
> Then
> I ask them to think about the moment when the fog began to clear and they
> were first able to begin to understand.  What happened right then, in 
> their
> minds?  in their lives?
>
> As you'll see later in the book, the chapters are divided up by the kinds 
> of
> things we may experience in our lives (behaviorally) when we're
> understanding and (in the last chapter) what may happen in our minds as a
> result of using the comprehension strategies.  I love to co-create a class
> definition with kids -- some of my ideas, some of theirs.  Nancy makes a 
> key
> point, though, and that is that there is no one list, no one definition --
> it really is something that I imagine will change each year for different
> groups of kids.  My list of Dimensions and Outcomes isn't the "right" list
> at all.  It's just based on my observations and reading as well as
> scrutinizing my own reading and understanding in other areas of my life.
>
> I loved Amy's idea at the end of this post.  I think it's great just to
> collect their emerging ideas on chart paper throughout the year, whenever
> new observations about the nature of understanding dawn on them!
> ellin
>
> -----Original Message-----
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> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2008 10:00 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Understand Digest, Vol 1, Issue 6
>
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> Today's Topics:
>
>   1. an intellectual history ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
>   2. Re: Understand Digest, Vol 1, Issue 5 ( Cindy & Ryan Pickering)
>   3. Re: Understand Digest, Vol 1, Issue 5 (Nancy Hagerty)
>   4. Re: what does it mean to UNDERSTAND? (Amy Swan)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 20:29:52 EDT
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: [Understand] an intellectual history
> To: [email protected]
> Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>
> Wow! Some great discussion so far!
>
> I have been thinking about some of my own "intellectual history" and I
> really can think of only two episodes before my college days. I had a
> young, male
> (a real novelty in my elementary school) student teacher who was
> experimenting, I think, with writer's workshop. For the first time in my
> schooling, I had
> a choice about what to write about and I can remember being  very 
> frustrated
>
> as Mr. Colbert kept sending my back to rewrite and rewrite  again. It was 
> a
> struggle to understand what was wrong with my work. I realize,  now, that
> Mr.
> Colbert was trying to get me to make decisions  about my writing...not 
> tell
> me
> what to write. I can remember the satisfaction I  felt when I turned in my
> final piece, even before Mr. Colbert told me I could be  a writer someday. 
> I
>
> didn't need the complement...I already KNEW I had done  well.
>
> In college, I had a freshman seminar with a classics professor, Dr. Sider.
> We were to develop our own philosophy of education and then design our
> college
> education (what courses to take) based on our own philosophy. I can
> remember
> loving and yet being very frustrated by Dr. Sider. He was always
> questioning, taking things deeper by asking me always to justify and 
> explain
> myself. He
> would send us away with a writing assignment and then we'd  always come 
> back
>
> to discuss and take our ideas deeper.  I always left  that class feeling
> both
> elated and exhausted.
>
> Recently, I have a professional colleague who, I realize now, does the 
> same
>
> thing for me...gentle nudges to think more deeply about things I am
> passionate
> about...things I thought I understood. Emails fly back and forth and  this
> colleague very patiently reads them all and answers, sometimes
> extensively...other times with an article to think about or a question or
> two...a nudge that
> keeps me thinking.
>
> There are some commonalities in these experiences for me... I realize that
> writing figures heavily in my most memorable learning experiences. There 
> is
>
> struggle...but it is supported struggle. There  is/was  quiet time to 
> think,
>
> reflect and write and then someone to talk to about my  thoughts. And
> yes...there
> is joy....after the struggle...a feeling of  accomplishment that I finally
> do, at last, understand at least a little better  than I did before.
>
> I think we, as teachers, need to think about these times in our own lives
> and the conditions our teachers set up for us when we felt that joy which
> comes
> from deep understanding.  Armed with this information, I think we  have a
> great chance for really improving our schools in a meaningful way.
> Keep the posts coming!
> Jennifer
>
>
>
> **************Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL
> Home.
> (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom0
> 0030000000001)
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 20:44:10 -0700
> From: " Cindy & Ryan Pickering" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Re: [Understand] Understand Digest, Vol 1, Issue 5
> To: <[email protected]>
> Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>
>
> I asked my 6th graders today what it means if a book "makes sense" or "do
> you understand".  The majority thought it wasn't a good question :)  Most 
> of
> their answers involved things like:  Do you know what the book is about?
> Does the book stay on topic?  Is it too easy or too hard?  Do I get the
> point of the book? The person asking doesn't understand the book.
> I tried to pinpoint them more on what "understand" and "getting it means",
> but we mostly went in circles.  It was interesting to hear their thoughts.
> I'd like to find a way to word the question better and see if I can get 
> them
> to think deeper about it.
> Cindy
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 07:23:50 -0400
> From: "Nancy Hagerty" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Re: [Understand] Understand Digest, Vol 1, Issue 5
> To: <[email protected]>
> Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
>
> Cindy wrote:
>
> I'd like to find a way to word the question better and see if I can get 
> them
> to think deeper about it.
>
> Cindy, I think that is the beauty of the question, it can't be reworded. 
> It
> has to stand as is.  "Understand" means different things to each of us at
> different times.  THINK about how many times we, as teachers say those
> words...to our children...to our peers...colleauges, etc.  The complexity 
> of
> it lies within its simplicity.  Jamika wa s "right on."  Many of my first
> graders answered with ideas surrounding decoding.  For many of them the
> struggle is still just figuring out what the word actually says.  They
> really believe that if they could just "read" it they would be able to
> understand it.  Now we all know that isn't true.   My more sophisticated
> readers attempted a more complex response, but they kept coming back to 
> the
> word UNDERSTAND.  After much discussion they finally were able to 
> articulate
> that it meant knowing what the author was trying to tell them.  Now that 
> is
> a loaded statement and they certainly don't yet understand the different
> levels of the author's message, but the conversation was priceless.  My
> kiddos know that there is a certain expectation with reading now.  It is 
> not
> enough to word call.  The Reader must engage with the text before, during
> and after reading.  We all shine at different parts of this process, but
> together we come to "understand" just a little it better each day.
>
> Nancy
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 09:19:50 -0500
> From: "Amy Swan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Re: [Understand] what does it mean to UNDERSTAND?
> To: <[email protected]>
> Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
>
> Cindy wrote:
> I'd like to find a way to word the question better and see if I can get 
> them
> to think deeper about it.
>
> Nancy wrote:
> I think that is the beauty of the question, it can't be reworded.  It has 
> to
> stand as is.  "Understand" means different things to each of us at 
> different
> times.
> ---
> As a result of reading those posts, I'm thinking how interesting it would 
> be
> to pose this question to students at different times throughout the year 
> and
> to keep their responses in a portfolio.  I'm sure we would uncover some
> fascinating patterns of thought and intellectual growth!
>
> Children are our very best teachers!  :)
>
> Amy Swan
> 3rd Grade Teacher
> Cedar Creek Elementary
> (913)780-7360
> CHECK OUT OUR CLASS WEBPAGE!! http://teachers.olathe.k12.ks.us/~aswancc/
>
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