From: Steven Atreju <snatreju_at_googlemail.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2012 12:28:23 +0100
Philippe Verdy <verdy_p_at_wanadoo.fr> wrote:
[.]
>
> |then the real catastrophe occured 394 years ago, in 1618, just because of
>
> |the conquest of America by Spanish troops :
I'm still waiting for another catastrophe though I guess.
> > which meant a massive death of
> > |lots of Amerindians (most of them due to imported infections, to which
> Terrible and ridiculous little selfish infections.
> >|Amerindians were not protected, but also due to the end of development of
> > |the Mayan civilization caused by their internal wars, their concentration
Not only that Phillipe, but the Atlantic basin climate underwent major change
during the 17th and 18th centuries, more drought winters and summers, wetter
springs, according to both local farmers trying to grow stuff, and also
according to research on the layers of soil (I've got to get the citation; the
author was actually trying to argue that 17th-18th century effects of Europeans
were no were environmentally than what happened when first people came to
Americas perhaps more than 25000 years before. But from the graphs he produced
for precipitation, the effects of Europeans on the climate were rather severe.)
> One won't believe how stupid these natives were.
> Ritual torture of the *own* people.
O.k. I used to think the Mayans were one people who did not sacrifice their
own, but wells apparently were used for such as not all bones found in these
were from people who fell accidentally apparently; when the Incans wanted to
sacrifice someone, they hit the person over the head, etc. But the Europeans
likewise had some odd customs, burning people at the stake, no Geneva Accords
at the time, slavery. Oh well.
And look today at the West, high heels on ladies, not at all good for achilles
tendons (I never wore heels though and still I ended up in college with an
almost completely ruptured plantaris tendon and an inflammed and partly
ruptured achilles tendon -- you have no idea how difficult it was to study like
that with no easy way to "unwind") and this is not too much different than
having your feet bound (though IMO it would also be awful trying to jog on feet
that had been bound as one needs lots of space to redistribute the punch from
each step; incidentally here you have another custom of the Natives of the
Americas; when taking prisoners they cut muscles in their feet so they'd not
run off, but some darted off quite well in such a state apparently).
> Also Polynesians and Aborigines, Indians and some african
> natives -- all foolish enough to torture themselves instead of
> others.
IMO that's their body, their business (we should probably be thankful to all
for business I guess), but interestingly HTLV II was found initially in a
smattering of places, the West Coast where the Incas were, not really quite
north to the Mayas but just about; while HTLV I, maybe 1000 years removed (who
knows really though when the two varieties split off) was found on Japanese
Islands, and among the Melanesians, and also East Africa, but also in an area
of Italy and the Caribbean (I'd surmise Columbus and others brought it to Italy
and the Caribbean but I really don't know).
> Fortunately these times are over, thanks to the missioners which
> altruistically spent their lives spreading the light all over the
> planet.
Melanesians seemed to (and seem today to) appreciate Christianity; and they
developed something called "Cargo Christianity" as I understand it (their
version of Christianity):
http://int.icej.org/news/commentary/cargo-cult-christianity (but anyway
interestingly, according to another source, Pacific Islanders already had a
system of adopting "kin" who lived in distant locales and sending to them
messages via boat travelers requesting goods not found on their island; so
maybe "cargo cults" were partly indigenous, and not such a bad custom; everyone
is greedy; and Christianity today has pulled in various customs IMO but I'm not
an experton any of this).
> It must be said though that it seems as if countermovements rise
> on the very sphere, a motion that is absolutely inconceivable.
> And it'll possibly be a bit frightening to participate in the
> further developments of events.
> Good to know to be on the right side.
> On the other hand it is quite spirited that Unicode covers the
> language of so many cultures. Even of some that didn't use
> written text on their own, and originally.
O.k. but the Mayans did have writings (not to mention delicious chocolate);
though our ideas today of what a "written text" is and what its purpose is and
the ideas of the Mayans might differ a bit (and even Europeans in the 17th
century had different ideas about the uses of texts than we do today and
computers are changing still further what texts do for us; ideas vary from
person to person and culture to culture; I like Shirley Brice Heath (ed)'s
"Exploring Orality and Literacy" and also Heath's (author this time only) "Ways
With Words" on this. Miztec codices, incidentally, as I understand it, are
still found today in the public sphere in Mexico, in offices of officials; they
are deemed important today -- what they represent is the story of the land and
the peoples who have come there so I suppose that means today's officials, in
spite of prejudice against "Indians," in some way trace their genealogies to
the genealogies shown on the codices (but this is just my guess; any other
ideas as to why these codices show up in town halls? just local history?); also
I love the story of Felipe Guaman Poma de Alaya though I do find him a bit
sexist since he saw the natural order was having men rule over women; and so
when he depicted the world's having turned upside down he showed the loss of
male rule over women: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felipe_Guaman_Poma_de_Ayala
But we are getting off topic for this list. Happy New Year.
Best,
--C. E. Whitehead
[email protected]
> As a matter of fact sometimes something similar to what can be
> called a face shines through.
Rare events can be savoured much more intense.
Steven
