I've written comments on the Cedilla and Comma below discussion: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/30222296/Unicode/Comments%20on%20cedilla%20and%20comma%20below.pdf
Cheers, On Fri, Jul 5, 2013 at 3:09 PM, Philippe Verdy <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > 2013/7/5 Michael Everson <[email protected]> >> >> On 5 Jul 2013, at 08:04, Denis Jacquerye <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> >> The problem is in pretending that a cedilla and a comma below are >> >> equivalent because in some script fonts in France or Turkey routinely >> >> write >> >> some sort of undifferentiated tick for ç. :-) >> > >> > Sure they are not equivalent, but stop pretending it is only in some >> > script fonts, the page http://typophile.com/node/49347 has plenty of >> > examples where it is not in script fonts. In some languages the cedilla can >> > have a shape similar to that of a comma, it's a fact. >> >> Yes, well, if there are non-script fonts which have this feature, it >> nevertheless derived from handwriting. Would any French primer for young >> children routinely use a full-formed C WITH COMMA BELOW C̦ c̦ regularly >> throughout? No. Would readers of Le Monde notice if all the fonts one day >> shifted to C̦ c̦? Of course they would -- and I'd wager €100 they would >> protest, and loudly. >> >> > Any native speaker will tell you the comma-like form and others are >> > acceptable. >> >> Not by any means in all contexts. In genuine taste-tests, Ç ç would be >> universally selected as the "more correct" form by French users. C̦ c̦ would >> not be. > > > Actually users will only protest if the shape is not attached or displayed > too much below. > > But the exact shape does not matter much: an attached vertical tick, or > comma touching the bottom of letters (9-shaped, or )-shaped diagonal > rectangular stroke, or diagonal triangular), or the 5-shaped standard > cedilla will be accepted. it will also be accepted if it's a small mirrored > c, or right half circle, not connected to the base of the letter with some > vertical or diagonal thin stroke. > > As long as this is coherent with the general font style and it is clearly > visible and not confused with a dot below. Handwritten French texts > frequently do not use the standard 5-shaped glyph, but some attached > diagonal stroke connected to the center bottom of the c letter. > > [notes] > With the exception of untranslated foreign toponyms and of people names or > possible trademarks, only the letters c and C have a cedilla in French, and > most users cannot type the cedilla below the capital letter C with their > standard keyboard layout, e.g. on Windows, MacOS, or Linux, without > complication or without using personal customized layouts. > > Word processors or spell correctors for web browsers are proposing the > correction on the frequent word "Ça", the most common case where the cedilla > is missing below C. > > There also the expression "Ç’a" which is the contraction of "Ça" followed by > the auxiliary conjugated verb "a", used in the compound past ("passé > composé") time of conjugated verbs, but this rare form is avoided by most > users who use the imperfect ("imparfait") or simple past ("passé simple") > time, i.e. non-compound times, or will use the synonym "Cela" before the > compound past. (Some more advanced French users will avoid it because of the > phonologic alliteration of "Cela a...", where "Ç’a ..." is still preferable > to respect the correct time matching of sentences and correct phonology > including the contraction; some users are also not using the contraction, > and say or write "Ça a..."). Many users avoid the difficulty caused by "Ça" > on their keyboard by writing its synonym "Cela". > > Other cases for capital C with cedillas only include those where text > written in "all-caps" styles (not to be abused, but generally limited to > some paragraphs for strong notices, like denials of responsabilities in > contracts and licences, or for strengthening a single word like "GARÇON(S)" > vs. "FILLE(S)" within long sentences, but not in isolated cases like data > column headers which should still write "Garçon(s)" or "garçon(s)"). Words > containing a cedilla are frequent only because of the word "ça", but the > presence of a cedilla outside the word "ça" is still low in French, most of > them are in conjugated verbs whose infinite ending in "-cer" like "nous > enlaçons") > > In other words, the real difficulty of the cedilla in French is to have it > properly displayed below non-initial lowercase letters c, most of these > cases are in conjugated verbs and a few common nouns like "garçon(s)", > "glaçon(s)", or less frequent words "limaçon(s)" and "colimaçon(s)", plus > some wellknown toponyms like "Curaçao" (the island in Dutch Antillas, or the > name of an alcohol wellknown for its blue color)... In all these cases, the > shape of the cedilla does not really matter, as long as some some mark is > present below "c" for correct reading. The initial forms Ca and C’, instead > of the correct forms Ça and Ç’ is frequent, but does not cause a reading > problem when it occurs at the beginning of a sentence. > > In fact, this is perceived as a typographic problem more than an > orthographic problem (just like the shape of the apostrophe, which is > preferably the 9-shaped high comma ’ but also absent from keyboards, that > offer only the vertical tick of an encoded ASCII apostrophe-quote). > -- Denis Moyogo Jacquerye African Network for Localisation http://www.africanlocalisation.net/ Nkótá ya Kongó míbalé --- http://info-langues-congo.1sd.org/ DejaVu fonts --- http://www.dejavu-fonts.org/
