[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
In a message dated 10/24/07 2:55:39 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
well, I don't know nuttin' 'bout nuttin', but it looks like
uchs's own website lists the house as being on the national
register for historic places, june 22, 1979
Ray, my mistake, I've been assuming that the property on the corner of 40th &
Pine was 4000 Pine Street, but I realize now that it is not. The entry you
read on the UCHS website is for the intact house next door to the proposed
hotel site. In other words, the house one-in from the corner is 4000 Pine St.
You can confirm this by looking it up on Hallwatch.org: that building is
not owned by Penn!
The proposed hotel site is 400 S. 40th St. That's the address on the
documents for the Historical Commission's meeting yesterday, now that I look at them
more closely.
400 S. 40th St. is also on the UCHS website, both on the West Philadelphia
Streetcar Suburb Historic District inventory, as:
400 South 40 St.
Attributed to Samuel Sloan, architect
c.1853
Three-story, Italianate, stucco detached house. Distinguishing features
include wrought iron window hoods, columned porch with pedimented entrance, quoins,
bracketed cornice, cupola with arched windows, and paired bracketed cornice.
One-story white brick-front addition c.1960. Driveway through yard. 1 Con
tributing.
...and on the Hamilton Family Estate historic site inventory as:
Buildings contributing to the quality of the district:
1. 400 South 40th Street - Italianate house, c. 1853; altered into a nursing
home, with front porch removed, and front and side additions. (Part of
district in that it survives, but not essential to the streetscape in that it fronts
on 40th Street).
BUT - huge distinction here between types of historic districts: a National
Register district is not under the guidance of the Philadelphia Historical
Commission. AND, being on the National Register does not require an owner to
preserve the property. If it did, most every house in University City would
be protected now, because University City has quite a few National Register
Districts - including the West Philadelphia Streetcar Suburb Historic District,
and as far as I can tell, also the Hamilton Family Estate historic site, both
shown on the UCHS website.
So the fact that the address was shown on the UCHS website as being a part of
a National Register District would not have alerted its buyers or sellers to
the fact that it was locally designated, requiring that it be preserved.
Thanks for pointing out the address discrepancy and giving me the opportunity
to explain the distinction between the National Register and a local historic
district.
Enough on this topic, I'm sure,
yes, I already knew that the building in question was 400 s.
40th street; it's listed as contributing and described on
the uchs webpage I cited, near the bottom. and it indeed is
part of the streetscape in question.
the excerpt I quoted was to show how the WHOLE block was
considered important, as a streetscape, an ensemble. I also
cited another uchs webpage that showed that the block EAST
of that, and houses NORTH of that, were also considered
important to the fabric ("contributing"). I keep talking
about streetscape and fabric and context because that's
what's important in this, as a zoning question, as a
neighborhood question, as a question of how appropriate a
10-story hotel would be for that corner. I also quoted that
section to remind ourselves of the 'profoundly telling
lesson for contemporary urban planners' -- namely, that the
vitality of the suburban streetscape has to do with theme
and variation, allowing for change, but within a context. a
contemporary 10-story hotel does not fit, whereas other
contemporary uses might.
and yes, I already knew that being listed on the national
register of historic places doesn't guarantee preservation
-- I quoted language from another site confirming that. but
being listed on the national register of historic places as
'contributing' is certainly a head's up for any buyer, and
both the uchs and shca websites talk about the importance of
contributing buildings and the national register of historic
places as key stepping stones to historic designation.
from uchs:
"Neighborhoods within Philadelphia may be designated as
historic districts by either the City of Philadelphia or by
the National Park Service's National Register of Historic
Places. The University City Historical Society is involved
in ongoing efforts to have the historic character of our
neighborhoods recognized by both groups."
from shca:
"the designation of an historic district provides a tool for
neighbors to help protect their community against
inappropriate alterations which can destroy the visual
character of a neighborhood. Click here for a list of the
criteria for designation to the Philadelphia Register of
Historic Places."
surely penn and tom lussenhop could have found all this
information as easily as you or I, that the building in
question was contributing, and surely they knew what they
were facing with this proposal: decisions by the historic
commission and the zoning board.
I think what's getting confused here, why it seems we're
talking past one another, is that while we're both saying
that we'd expect a developer to respect the existing
streetscape, you seem to think now that that only counts if
it's an officially historically designated streetscape,
while myself and others are saying it counts whether it's an
historic streetscape or a non-historic streetscape --
streetscapes are streetscapes, neighborhood fabric is
neighborhood fabric, appropriate use is appropriate use. ie,
it's not just a historic thing that makes a streetscape a
streetscape or a neighborhood a neighborhood -- but in this
case it certainly contributes, and there's documentation,
and so we not only hear recommendations about the proposal
from the zoning board but also from the historic committee.
..................
UNIVERSITY*CITOYEN
[aka laserbeam®]
[aka ray]
SERIAL LIAR. CALL FOR RATES.
"It is very clear on this listserve who
these people are. Ray has admitted being
connected to this forger." -- Tony West
"Ray's falsehoods are more sophisticated,
more believable" -- Tony West
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