Jason itemizes my experience exactly. I have been in this game for quite some time now and while I have done *some* work in frameworks, mainly as proof-of-worthiness, the vast majority of my work has been done manually.
I have done some testing of processes/systems by writing one by hand and utilizing a framework and the one written by hand was *always* faster at run time, which is always a critical issue for me. I'm all about the speed. Another argument is dev time. For me, I can see how a framework might speed up development for someone just starting out or who has only worked within frameworks, but once someone like me has built a large enough library of their own, the differences in dev time are negligible-to-non-existent. As an aside, I was once a proud-badge-wearing type of coder that "only used a plain text editor", but have long since cone to appreciate a really good IDE as a solid development tool that increases productivity. Going back to execution speed and how that is so important to me, I would like to reference a really fascinating article that benchmarks framework speeds. It's really astounding how much slower - even the fastest frameworks - make a system run. Check it out: http://is.gd/JGn Yarp, -jim On Wed, Mar 11, 2009 at 10:47 AM, Jason Jones <[email protected]> wrote: > I'm gonna step out on this one because this topic has been a hot one in my > head for quite some time now. Not only with AJAX, but frameworks in > general. > > When I began programming, there were no frameworks for PHP, JavaScript, or > AJAX (not sure if AJAX even existed back then). I programmed from scratch > by hand, and have done so ever since. Anyway, this thread made me think > that this could be quite a good discussion, and bring some light to the > debate to use a framework or not. Here is my experience: > > > - I've created my own templating system which works just fine, and > enables me to create applications very quickly - it's not robust at all when > compared to the likes of codeigniter or cakePHP, but for my purposes, it > works wonderfully, scales well, and can be used in highly complex apps. > - I worked on a project with a guy who was a framework junkie. He > implemented multiple JS libraries (moo-tools, dojo, and most likely a few > others) and I'm sure he used a PHP framework to code, and although his > application was developed extremely quick, when actually loaded in the > browser, it ran as fast as mud flowing uphill. Seriously, it had so much > eye-candy, it took forever to actually do anything with his app. I was not > impressed. > - Although I haven't done any work personally with any framework, I've > read quite a bit about them, and consider myself at least a bit informed > about them. > > Now here are some questions I have: > > 1. I know that frameworks simultaneously make coding faster, yet make > executing code slower. I know this depends *highly* upon implementation and > skill of the programmer, yet I can't get it out of my head that while > implementing a canned framework, I'm importing thousands of lines of > executable code which I'll never use. Should I be worried about that? Are > the benefits of using a framework worth it? > 2. At the first programming job I ever had, I decided to code by hand (it > was only HTML and a little JS), while my two colleagues decided to go the > WYSIWYG route. While they were marginally faster than me at whipping out > websites, I found that when their sites had bugs, they had no idea how to > fix them, and would come to me. Because I had been coding by hand, and thus > being able to figure out the bugs, I could squash their bugs much quicker > than they could. Will frameworks create the same dependance upon a > higher-level coding, thus disabling me from learning more about the core > language? (Kind of a stupid question, I know, but broadened - I believe > might still be relevant to users who have never coded PHP outside of a > framework) > 3. As I understand it, to some level, frameworks standardize the codebase > and make it easier for more developers to jump on board without having to > learn the nuances of an eclectic developer. I'm worried that, should I > decide to use a framework for a project, and find its capabilities lacking, > or am unable to make the framework function for a part of the project, I > would go around it, thus fudging the code somehow, and making more of a mess > than had I not used the framework to begin with. Do frameworks provide all > the funcionality needed to self-contain the code? Are they programatically > restrictive? > > I guess that's it for now. Hopefully this will spur some constructive > debate and enlighten people like me who can definitely see the advantages to > using a PHP framework, or a JS library, but can also see the negative side > as well. > > --Jason > > _______________________________________________ > > UPHPU mailing list > [email protected] > http://uphpu.org/mailman/listinfo/uphpu > IRC: #uphpu on irc.freenode.net > _______________________________________________ UPHPU mailing list [email protected] http://uphpu.org/mailman/listinfo/uphpu IRC: #uphpu on irc.freenode.net
