Heya, Sorry for late reply, been on the move .
On Fri, 2007-03-23 at 12:09 -0700, Mark Knecht wrote: > Hi Kirk, > I think you have it just about right as far as I'm concerned. > > a) I don't want to force anyone outside of my responsibility to have > to do anything differently than they do today. I understand why the > shut down command exists in the System menu and why many or even most > people would want it there. > > b) On the other hand I do not personally want Gnome developers > granting my users any root responsibilities by default. I want to > control that based on how we use our machines. Since 'shutdown -h now' > is not a command these users can execute in a terminal I don't want > Gnome going around my usage model and giving them permission to do so > from in a Gnome session without my permission. (Since it breaks > ongoing work on that machine.) > > c) I'm fine with any reasonable method of allowing root to give this > capability to any or all users. It could be anything from a field in > gconfig (if that's what it's still called) to a specific group in > /etc/group. Give me a group called shutdown and I'll add it to > specific user accounts, etc. I believe on Fedora halt and poweroff setting are controlled via pam , and thus can be disabled by modifying the pam config files. > > d) On other lists I think there is some consensus that Linux menus in > general are too hard to edit. After using Gnome for years I don't know > how to add or remove applications or commands from the System menu. It > doesn't seem to follow the documentation I've read. (But other than > this issue I admit I haven't dug very deeply.) If I could edit the > system menu and just delete this entry it wouldn't be an issue for my > wife and son. They never go beyond the menus and very simple terminal > commands. If they want desktop icons they come to me. > > e) I have an inconsistency in my request because if my son wants to > reboot into Windows and he has to exit to gdm to do so then he will > and I still have a problem. For that reason it would be good if there > was some understanding of the running un-interruptable system command > or even that other users are logged on. (Windows clearly displays in > its login screen and asks for extra confirmation if other users are > still logged on.) I sometimes use other machines on my network and > pipe X back to my screen. I know my family doesn't understand that a X > app window on my screen is not necessarily an app running on my > machine. However if I'm using my son's 32-bit machine to run some Java > thing in a browser since my machine is 64-bit and Java doesn't run > really well on 64-bit boxes then I don't want him taking the machine > off line when I'm working. > > Anyway, I do appreciate your response and those from others. I hope > we can eventually figure out a good overall suggestion as well as an > appropriate way to pass it on to the developers. > > Cheers, > Mark > > On 3/22/07, Kirk Bridger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > Hi Mark, > > > > Perhaps the problem is that the user environment offers all users the > > ability to shutdown, whereas you would rather be able to offer them only > > logout or switch user capabilities? Perhaps suspend too? The point being > > that it is a user-specific setting/limitation. > > > > Maybe the best option here would be to allow the system admin to control > > which parts of the dialogue displayed to the user are actually available for > > that user to interact with? > > > > I don't like the idea of having to logout and then shutdown, as I'm the > > only user on my system. I think this would better be controlled on a > > per-user level rather than globally. The Users and Groups dialogue offers > > the ability to control what a user can do with the system - maybe we should > > ask to have the system controls added to this list explicitly? > > > > I also think that a shutdown command should be aware of the fact that an > > un-interruptable system operation is going on. It should alert the user and > > ask them to specify if the user wants to cancel their shutdown command or > > simply shutdown when the un-interruptable operation is complete. > > > > Sadly I don't know which parts of Gnome would need to change here, so I > > can't make any recommendations as to where to file the bugs. > > > > Kirk > > > > > > Mark Knecht wrote: > > Manu, > > Thanks for your response. > > > > I agree that finding a way to warn a user that upgrades are in > > progress would be a valuable addition. However keep in mind that > > sometimes users can be quite young and may or may not pay attention to > > these messages. > > > > My son, now 14, has never had a Windows PC. He got his first Linux > > box at age 7 and has been using Linux for about 7 years. I'm not sure > > at the age of 7 that he would have understood the difference between > > log out and shut down. I'm certain he wouldn't have understood the > > real meaning up an 'updates in progress. Don't shut down!' message. > > > > I suppose that what I'm asking for is what Gnome used to provide. > > The addition of the Shut Down option in the menus is fairly recent. > > Maybe a year ago it was added to the user environment. Prior to that > > it only appeared in the gdm login screen. I'd like to see an option to > > return to that model. > > > > Personal observation: I personally cannot see why *anyone* needs a > > shut down option within their desktop. Linux is not Windows. It is > > fully multi-tasking and multi-user. At a minimum I'd prefer users have > > to completely log out and then at a minimum *consciously* decide to > > shut the machine down from gdm. I'd also like to see Gnome or gdm do, > > at a minimum, what Windows does which is warn that other users are > > logged on before the final shut down sequences can start. > > > > Note that this isn't only a problem for little kids. My wife's > > machines servers as a MythTV backend server. Periodically sh will make > > a mistake when logging out and choose shut down. The machine shuts > > down and we lose recordings. Granted, she should be able to read the > > message saying that the machine will shut down in 60 seconds, but > > sometimes she will do this trying to get out the door to work when > > she's rushed and not paying as much attention. > > > > As a small note toward usability both my wife and son have > > rearranged their desktop to move what I think Gnome calls the 'panel' > > to the top of the screen. For some reason they feel they are less > > likely to choose the shut down option when their screens are arranged > > this way. Personally I don't like that arrangement but to each his > > own. > > > > Anyway, we are all Gnome users and love the environment. It strikes > > a nice balance between features & usability while keeping from > > terribly overtaxing the system. I use Gnome with real-time kernels for > > audio recording. 4 years ago I could never have done that and was > > using minimalist environments like fluxbox. I like that I can now use > > Gnome and not suffer in the least. > > > > Lastly, I'm not looking for any immediate changes in Gnome. I just > > thought I'd report this after maybe our 10th, and worst, run in with > > the issue. > > > > Cheers, > > Mark > > > > On 3/21/07, Manu Cornet <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > Hi Mark! > > > > Thank you for your feedback. I think the problem you raise is real, > > however I believe the need to solve the "how to fix a broken system" > > problem is not as urgent as the need to not break it in the first > > place. The simplest way I see is to be able to warn the user against > > shutting down/rebooting whenever a system upgrade is being performed. > > > > I'm not sure whether this needs to be distro specific or not (there > > are many ways to upgrade a system in the various distros), but the > > upgrade system should probably let gnome-session know about what it is > > doing? > > > > Cheers, > > Manu > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Usability mailing list > > [email protected] > > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/usability > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Usability mailing list > [email protected] > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/usability -- Ritesh Khadgaray ॐ मणि पद्मे हूँ LinuX N Stuff Ph: +919970164885 Eat Right, Exercise, Die Anyway. _______________________________________________ Usability mailing list [email protected] http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/usability
