Hi Bob,

I think I understand your arguments. I'm not convinced, though.

If you had a complicated nest of scrolling fields, scrolling cards, scrolling 
backgrounds and a scrolling stack, you'd really have a mess. Inexperienced 
authors (are they still called "authors"?) would have to be warned against 
making such messes.

LC sort of maintains the original "card" metaphor... And sort of doesn't.

I can think of cases where a scrolling card or a scrolling stack would be 
useful and rational. In many cases, these would be unnecessary or pointless. In 
the same way, a scrolling group is useful and rational sometimes, and sometimes 
not.

This doesn't need to be a big debate. It's probably not very important or 
interesting. I was just kind of wondering.

I'm guessing native scrollbars in groups -- but not cards or stacks, -- was an 
ad-hoc compromise made early in the hyperCard years, that just got carried 
along ever since. I've guessed wrong before, though.

Cheers,

Tim



On Jun 15, 2011, at 4:28 PM, Bob Sneidar wrote:

> I think there is. You can see how certain kinds of fields would need to 
> scroll, where other fields do not. Fields are more akin to windows than any 
> other LC object. I suppose you could think of a card that way, but the card 
> and stack of cards allegory lends itself to some fixed size. If the whole 
> world be an ocean, they why do I have legs? If everything can scroll, then 
> why use cards at all? Why not just float a group of objects out there? 
> 
> Also, many applications have some kind of background that is a fixed size 
> and/or pattern. Typically you want that whole background visible. Fixed 
> discernible boundaries within which things can change is much more mentally 
> comfortable to the human psyche in my opinion. We want a top and a bottom and 
> sides. Everything else is negotiable. 
> 
> Have you ever read a report that had no header or footer, just data, or tried 
> to view a large spreadsheet that was made that way? Put a fixed header and 
> footer in a spreadsheet while the data in between scrolls, and your mind 
> suddenly breathes a sigh of relief! 
> 
> Have you ever tried to remote into another computer whose monitor size was 
> excessively small? It's irritating to constantly have to scroll the screen 
> around to see everything. That would be annoying in an app. Web pages can be 
> a pain that way too if improperly designed. Better to have a single frame 
> that scrolls while everything else around it remains static, as opposed to a 
> web page where everything scrolls, and you have to scroll all the way back up 
> just to get to the buttons that take you somewhere else. 
> 
> A group that scrolls is the real odd duck if you ask me. But for certain 
> kinds of interfaces, like side scrolling games, or mapping, it is really 
> handy.
> 
> Finally, if something needs to be a fixed size, then ask yourself, if not the 
> card, what? The card is the highest element in an interface. It's no good 
> talking about the stack as if it were a single thing you could put other 
> things on. The stack is just a bunch of cards. Something needs to be a fixed 
> size upon which all other geometry can be based. Otherwise people would be 
> tempted to make applications that were more like jello than a piece of bread. 
> 
> That is how I view it anyway. 
> 
> Bob
> 
> 
> On Jun 15, 2011, at 3:06 PM, Timothy Miller wrote:
> 
>> Hi,
>> 
>> I never thought about it before, but now I'm wondering. Is there any 
>> rational reason that native scrollbars can be enabled for fields and groups 
>> but not for cards or stacks?
>> 
>> Cheers,
>> 
>> Tim
>> 
>> 
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