Randall, some of the abstract examples you've given are simple to do,
and some aren't. But given that Revolution (like Hypercard) is not a
typed language, I'm not sure I'd welcome semi-low-level type ideas
like "as string", "as numbered chars" etc.
Perhaps if we had a better idea of your application, we could offer
better comments and suggestions.
Best,
Mark
On 31 Dec 2007, at 20:01, Randall Lee Reetz wrote:
Thanks to all who have tried to help.
I know (or could probably figure out) how to write my own functions
for these text parsing affordances I am after. What I was looking
for is a simple (built-in) syntax to get info from any chunk
description returned in any string or chunk form. The following
(suggested) syntax would add powerful string and chunk referencing
and query to Rev or any xTalk language:
-- get chunk numbers...
the [charNumber] of char 1 of word 7 of line 3 of myFld
the [wordNumber] of word 3 of line 3 of myFld
the [lineNumber] of char 567 of myFld
the [wordNumber] of char 567 of myFld
the [itemNumber] of word 35 line 3 of myFld
-- get chunk strings...
the [lineSting] of char 3 of word 35 of myFld -- would return the
actual line containing that char (as string)
the [wordString] of char 567 of myFld -- would return the actual
word containing that char (as string)
the [itemString] of word 36 of myFld -- would return the actual
item containing that word (as string)
-- get chunk descriptions (inclusive from this chunk to that chunk)
the [wordChunk] of line 12 of myFld -- would return chunk
expression "word 503 to 524"
the [lineChunk] of char 33 to 300 of myFld -- would return chunk
expression "line 1 to 7"
the [charChunk] of word 567 of myFld -- would return chunk
expression "char 8903 to 9126"
the [itemChunk] of word 567 of myFld -- would return chunk
expression "item 14"
the [lineChunk] of item 12 of myFld -- would return chunk
expression "line 4"
The syntax for all of these functions would be more universal if
written in a more universal grammatical form...
the char[s] of item 3 of myFld [as numbered chars] -- returns "char
56 to 78"
the word[s] of line 3 of myFld [as numbed words] -- returns "word 3
to 7"
the line[s] of char 31 to 45 of myVar [as string] -- returns "3. Do
not steal. [cr] 4. Do not kill"
the item of word 4 of line 6 of myTxt [as chunk in chars] --
returns "char 35 to 45"
xTalk is generally Turing Complete... meaning, it is usually
possible to write a function that will satisfy any algorithmic goal
(from the given lexicon and executable grammar). However, most of
us choose to use xTalk because it is a high level language, it
protects us from the inhuman repetition and complexity of low level
logic and function libraries. When we are each required to write
low level functions for common requests "Which word contains char
33", we are pulled away from the higher level tasks at hand (why we
are writing the script in the first place... what it is supposed to
do). The kind of mental and algorithmic and notational gymnastics
required to do some of these human tasks is enough to exclude many
of the very same people xTalk was designed to attract. Worse, even
those of us nerdy enough or motivated enough to wade through the
obfuscation have to create duplicate scripts from duplicate
effort. All of this seems antithetical to the original intent of
Bill Atkinson (the father of HyperTalk) and Alan Kay et al of Xerox
Palo Alto Research Center (the fathers of SmallTalk).
I am always amazed by the elegant intent of the original creators
of HyperCard and how obvious this intent infused every nuance of
its original implementation. Later renditions have added features
and have been laboriously held in lockstep with the quicksilver
backdrop of ever evolving OS and hardware combinations and the
network that has more and more dominance over modern computing.
However, much has been lost or forgotten along the way. Much of
the egalitarian intent behind the sentiment behind simple
statements like "computing for the rest of us". Much of this
populist intent has slowly eroded along the way. I would hope that
we all continue to respect Bill's original intent by remembering
and honoring the elegance and egalitarian humanity of his work.
This respect should go beyond simple romanticism. It should guide
our purchasing decisions and our expectations afterwards. Most
humans are Turing Complete... given enough time most of us could
write any function in most any language... but that really doesn't
get us much closer to our larger goals (unless of course we are
making a living learning how to become better and better algorithm
writers, in which case we are probably not using xTalk at all).
What matters to most of us is high level goals (How can I make my
organization more responsive to change?, How can I help these
students learn faster and more deeply?, How can I make this data
more intuitive and functional?, How can I automate this repetitive
task?, etc.), not the inane and removed mechanics of the language
of logic. Sure, I am proud when I solve an algorithmic or
notational problem in my scripting. But then I remember the
original task at hand and the fact that my solution really won't
help anyone else solve the same problem, and that brings even
greater respect for the few nerds who cared about non-nerds and who
could think clearly enough to see that even nerds would benefit
from systems that facilitate natural (pedestrian) human cognition.
The revolution that was "User Level Computing" was the
revolutionary idea that being able to do something was not
enough... that making difficult tasks easy made the real difference
between theory and actual human practice. Einstien wrote down the
rule: E=mc2... but nobody (except maybe the good people of the
Manhattan Project) has built a "Relativity Engine" from it. Making
an appliance from theory is the difference that makes the
difference. Thank you Uncle Bill!
Randall
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