Hi Bill,
On Dec 2, 2005, at 6:41 AM, Bill Marriott wrote:
I said nothing about the *content* of the mailing list, or the
participants!
For what it's worth, I, for one, didn't think you had.
Obviously it's a great resource. This is the "official" mailing
list -- you can't go anywhere else for that -- and I simply think
it's cumbersome. My opinion is it should migrate toward a more
attractive and accessible presentation. Just one little thing that
could make Rev more "popular."
If you think the forum is as good as it is "because" it's in this
format -- if you think this is somehow the "ideal" -- that's one
thing.
This is *exactly* what I think.
But I think it is this way "in spite of" the format. For example,
- I made my post completely oblivious that Kevin Miller had weighed
in, because I received the digest with his post *after* I made
mine. This is not "real-time."
There's your first problem, it is a mailing list so don't use
digests. Filters, threading, keeping fragments of threads, and
discontinuities in the flow of conversation results directly from
digests. The way to go is individual email messages...
- If you look at the list archive, you see that this thread (and
most others) are broken up into dozens of pieces so that it's quite
hard to follow who is responding to what.
...read in a configurable email reader that, especially handles
threaded mail conversations...
- On days when there is high traffic, you get a *lot* of email.
This has resulted in me filtering the Use-Revolution list into a
folder, which results in reading it less often.
...and folders. Folders are a good thing.
The thing is that with a mailing list I can read them using a tool
that *I* control and can make look and behave as *I* like. You don't
have to worry about what I like, and I don't have to worry about what
you like. As you can see this is a problem worth avoiding :-)
The only better solution to this is NNTP. Unfortunately, USENET is
pretty much dead because of spam and finding a good news reader these
days is hard (actually, some ISPs are no longer supporting NNTP).
BTW, if you are on windows, check out Agent <http://www.forteinc.com/
agent/index.php> if you want to see what I think is a fabulous mail/
news reader (they combine the two)... I wish this was available on
the Mac.
The problem with web based forums is a) their functionality sucks
(yes, this is my opinion, and that's the point); and, b) you have to
go to them. Going to something is fundamentally the wrong way about.
This is why email, news (despite the spam), and weblogs are either so
entrenched or such active areas of development.
The trouble, currently, with weblogs, is that they are still hard to
find, conversations are difficult (because of spam most weblogs have
disabled the functionality necessary to support conversations), and
there is no good way to keep track of interesting posts (and forget
about searching them). These things will change over time. When I
have a weblog reader as flexible as my email reader then we'll have
something interesting.
Also, I feel the "well if you don't like it go somewhere else" type
of feedback is less than mature or constructive, and quite
defensive-sounding. Why stop with point #12? If I want 3D, why
don't I use Director? If I want database tools, why not use
FileMaker? If I want a slicker IDE, why not use Visual Studio?
etc.? (It's a wonder they let ungrateful cads like me even *use*
Revolution!)
I didn't read Mark's comment the way you did.
I thought the question was a valid one and I gave my honest opinion.
I agree that your point is a valid one, and so is your opinion. But
you are wrong :-) Sort of...
The functionality supported by NNTP/USENET/news (email is SMTP, the
web is HTTP -- for you folks who don't follow this stuff, all these
are *very* closely related internet protocols) is what forums are
trying to re-create. If you like forums you'll love a good news
reader. The trouble with forums is that it gets it backwards and, on
top of that, have all the same problems as weblogs.
Now I say USENET is dead because of spam. This isn't precisely true
of course. In fact, there are a couple of examples of on-line
community that depend on USENET: lisp and ruby. The hottest old thing
in programming and the hottest new thing in programming. Ruby has a
gateway to a mailing list, and lisp, well, they've got 50 years of
history and won't budge on this issue :-)
Anyway, I'm way off topic.
Cheers,
Bob
Bill
|> 12) The discussion list. I think we're well beyond the days when
an email
|> list is the ideal way to go. Why can't we have a nice, phpBB- or
|> vBulletin-based board where threads are kept nicely organized,
etc.? Again,
|> the community support like other aspects is like living ten
years in the
|> past. (These boards still allow for receiving digests in email,
and/or
|> subscribing to threads.)
|
|Why don't you just sign onto one of the existing boards then?
|Personally I find this list much more useful and informative than any
|of the boards I've seen, but if that's your preference then go for
it.
|
|-- |-Mark Wieder
| [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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----
Bob Hutchison -- blogs at <http://www.recursive.ca/hutch/>
Recursive Design Inc. -- <http://www.recursive.ca/>
Raconteur -- <http://www.raconteur.info/>
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