Ian, Java is a beast! Minilang is a simple business logic language.
The average java book will run into hundreds of pages, while minilang docs can be read in an hour or two. Jonathon is using java because it is familiar to him, if you're not familiar with java, don't break your back by insisting on using that as your entry point to OfBiz. It's like trying to enter a building via the window on the third floor because that's the way the window cleaner guy told you to go ;-) - Andrew On Thu, 2007-01-18 at 16:46 +0000, Ian McNulty wrote: > Jonathon, > > Your words of comfort are much appreciated. My instincts tell me OFbiz > rules and I suspect God may too. So Amen from me too! > > Can we all help each other? It would be great if we could. > > But I think I need to make my position clear at the outset, to avoid > possible disappointment further down the line. > > I've been working with computers on and off since the late 60s and have > had to learn to hack various languages, from Algol through to php. But > it was never my major area of expertise. I never got into C, so OOP and > Java is still entirely new territory for me. Java, Minilang, or > Freemarker, I'd have to learn them all from scratch, will always be > miles behind everyone else, and could be in serious danger of being more > of a cost than a benefit. I've just starting reading Bruce Eckel's > Thinking in Java and starting thinking, maybe there just aren't enough > years left to get up to speed on all this? > > This could be either a major weakness or a strength, depending on where > I'm standing and what people might be relying on me to do. > > From what I've seen on this group over the past few weeks, there is no > shortage of top class engineers who I have no doubt could strip down the > engine and stick it back together again working better than ever, before > I'd finished making the morning tea (or coffee, depending on what side > of the pond you're on. :) > > I'm enough of an engineer to know how utterly irritating it is to have > people whittering on about irrelevancies like sticking door locks when > you've been up all night regrinding the cylinder head. But I've also > been down that road enough times to know how crucial it can be to have > someone fresh to take over, to wipe the grease off the bonnet, polish > the chrome work and wheel it out onto the forecourt, after you've done > your bit and just need to go home to bed. > > So I guess what I'm saying is that, for the moment at least, I'm better > off leaving the engineering to the experts and focussing on what the > average driver needs to see. > > For the past few years I've been installing Open Source e-commerce for > SMEs. It's a huge and expanding sector. 150,000 members on osCommerce > and Zen Cart forums alone! With up to 2,000 online at any one time! But > the problem they are all now facing is, now they have a successful > website, how do they integrate the back end with in-house accounting and > POS? Which is how I discovered OFbiz in the first place. > > There are many points that come out of this. Too many to properly > discuss here. > > First would be a huge potential market with installation fees of $3K > upwards, and with very little heavy engineering required at all. Store > owners care mainly about the look of their shop windows, the learning > curve for their staff, reducing staff overheads and the reliability of > the whole thing, and are prepared to pay for it. After a while they > start to understand the benefits of tuning the engine, which is where > the heavy engineering work kicks in. But this is something they will not > even contemplate until they are confident they have a solid vehicle that > will take them reliably from A to B. > > Second would be how the structure of these forums cultivate many levels > of users, from Formula One engineers all the way through to those who > don't even want to fill up the windscreen washer themselves. And this is > only the tip of the iceberg. For every one member on these forums there > are 9 others who can't even handle the log in and just want somebody to > take care of it all for them. > > I care deeply about Open Source and want to see it grow. I understand > why Formula One racers might not see what weekend drivers and > glove-compartment handbooks have got to do with them. My point is that a > wider user base increases the market, the need for all levels of > mechanics, and the bargaining power of the top class engineers. > > If anybody thinks this make some kind of sense, please let me know. > > Ian > > > > Jonathon -- Improov wrote: > > Er, Ian. I forgot to mention this. > > > > The docs for engineers aren't too comprehensive either. Try putting > > your best Java developers into picking up OFBiz. Take the screen > > widgets and form widgets for example. See how they fare. Like I said, > > Java is more documented than OFBiz-specific technologies. > > > > BUT.. but it's entirely possible to use Java only, plus > > non-OFBiz-specific technologies like Freemarker for front-end > > development convenience, and to skip Minilang and screen/form widgets > > to a large extent. Non-OFBiz-specific technologies are generally > > better documented since their developers focus develoment time solely > > on those techs, like Freemarker (front-end tool) developers don't > > delve into entity engines (backend tools). > > > > As I was telling my boss, it's actually easier to hire Java > > programmers than to hire Minilang or screen/form widget programmers. > > > > So, beware of the implications. Say I code customizations for you in > > Minilang and screen/form widgets, using almost or entirely zero Java. > > Future tech support could be an really hairy issue for you. > > > > BUT... at some point (I can't guarantee when), Minilang and > > screen/form widget docs will be complete, audited to be comprehensive, > > etc. You'll then probably find that programming in Minilang is more > > cost-effective than in Java. (Either that, or I get paid by someone to > > completely reverse-engineer and document all of Minilang and > > screen/form widget in a reasonable timeframe --- say a month. Not an > > impossible task, just a mountain of Java codes, is all). > > > > For now, Java is perhaps your best bet. > > > > To the other folks in overalls, I've been meaning to ask this. Is > > there any way at all to insert debug messages inside of Minilang and > > screen/form widget codes? I find it easier to debug Java codes for now. > > > > Jonathon > > > > Jonathon -- Improov wrote: > >> Ian, > >> > >> Amen! Yeah, God is good. OFBiz is good. Both can be hard to > >> understand. But I do believe that both are loving, very loving. Amen. > >> > >> If there's any way we can all help each other (Paul, Ian, Jonathon), > >> let me know. > >> > >> Jonathon > >> > >> Ian McNulty wrote: > >>> Hi Jonathon and Paul, > >>> > >>> Could I dive in here and say I'm currently trying to get a working > >>> model up and running that I could demo to small business clients in > >>> the UK. > >>> > >>> OFbiz looks so beautifully designed from the ground up, streets > >>> ahead of the competition and adaptable to almost any situation from > >>> running a one-man consultancy to a multinational enterprise. > >>> > >>> It looks like the most awesome super-car you've ever seen. I can't > >>> believe everybody won't want one. > >>> > >>> As Jonathon says, the community seems entirely focussed on moving > >>> forward rapidly and winning the next Le Mans. Which is how it should > >>> be. > >>> > >>> Imo this explains the lack of docs and the small bugs. The mass of > >>> available documentation is actually almost as awesome as the > >>> framework itself. Problem is that it is all aimed at engineers who > >>> need to understand how it works ... not how to work it. Enough > >>> workshop manuals to fill shelves in the garage, but no simple driver > >>> handbooks you can put in the glove compartment. > >>> > >>> This is a very fundamental difference. An entirely opposite point of > >>> view. > >>> > >>> Try talking to the average driver about the thermodynamics of > >>> combustion and they glaze over in seconds. They neither need nor > >>> want to know. They simply want to drive it. They pay the garage to > >>> take care of all that for them so they can free themselves up to > >>> deal with other things - like where to drive to. > >>> > >>> It's the little, superficial things that are most important. How > >>> does the door latch sound? Where is the gear shift and indicator > >>> switch? How often does it break down? > >>> > >>> This is true for all levels of users. More so in fact for the > >>> President of a large Corporation to whom image arriving at the golf > >>> club is everything, than to the small businessman in the street who > >>> accepts he may have to get his hands dirty occasionally. > >>> > >>> Winning the Le Mans is obviously a huge selling point and an > >>> essential place to start. In those circumstance, a door latch which > >>> needs a knack to open, the absence of a drivers handbook and the > >>> need for team of mechanics to tune it before every race is > >>> absolutely par for the course. And a racing driver who complains > >>> about such things will - quite rightly - be quickly shown the door. > >>> > >>> But for the average driver in the street it's exactly the opposite. > >>> One sticking door latch, one miss-start, one breakdown on the first > >>> test drive and they've had their one bite of the cherry and ain't > >>> never coming back for more. > >>> > >>> Imo this is the only problem I'd like to see solved. > >>> > >>> I started out a few weeks ago trying to point out that this list is > >>> more for users in overalls at the pit stop than drivers in business > >>> suits on their way to the office. > >>> > >>> Imo a forum for user-drivers rather than user-engineers would help > >>> focus the view from the other end of the telescope and prevent > >>> discussion of such superficial issues from clogging the inboxes of > >>> the rocket scientists who really need to be concentrating on getting > >>> us to Mars. > >>> > >>> I personally would like to contribute towards the development of > >>> some kind of drivers handbook. But if I can't get a working model > >>> going for myself then it's hard to know where to start. > >>> > >>> Ian > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Jonathon -- Improov wrote: > >>>> Hi Paul, > >>>> > >>>> I believe I'm currently doing it for a small business as well. > >>>> > >>>> You'll need to customize. Customization in this case involves > >>>> defaulting many values and code execution paths for a more > >>>> condensed workflow. That is, you can cut out some unnecessary steps > >>>> in the workflow and also auto-populate default values for some > >>>> fields (or leave them blank and unused). > >>>> > >>>> I propose that we work together on this? I have yet to hit the > >>>> accounting and GL side of things. I have figured out the ecommerce > >>>> (PO, SO) and product configuration side of things, though. And also > >>>> manufacturing, because my boss does manufacture stuff. > >>>> > >>>> You'll find that being a novice Java developer is ALL you need to > >>>> be, the framework is that easy to use. Well, you also need acute > >>>> reverse-engineering skills because the only way you'll find out how > >>>> things work is by diving into the framework source codes (see > >>>> GenericDelegator.java for entity-related functions). No docs. > >>>> Community is too being moving OFBiz forward rapidly. > >>>> > >>>> In fact, you may find it easily initially to use Java instead of > >>>> Minilang. Java is a lot more documented than Minilang. > >>>> > >>>> Tell you what. I can offer you very quick answers to "how do I do > >>>> this or that". I'm a reverse-engineer by trade; I have small crack > >>>> teams that mathematically take apart legacy system codes to break > >>>> vendor-lock for my clients. So, figuring out OFBiz, given that it's > >>>> opensource no less, is really... an interesting exercise, not a > >>>> tedious impractical one. > >>>> > >>>> You can help me with your accounting knowledge. (Yes, help me!! I > >>>> beg you!) > >>>> > >>>> How about that? > >>>> > >>>> One warning, though. There are quite a few bugs in OFBiz. They're > >>>> small issues if you can dive in to fix them yourself. But if you're > >>>> waiting for the community to fix them, you could be looking at > >>>> weeks before a patch goes in, especially for non-trivial fixes that > >>>> take time to review/audit. I'm currently holding quite a number of > >>>> fixes in-house, not yet reviewed by community and merged back into > >>>> OFBiz. > >>>> > >>>> I'm deploying a customized system for my boss inside of 1 month. > >>>> And he has quite a bit of customizations to do, particularly for > >>>> the manufacturing side of things. Oh, the Manufacturing module is > >>>> very feature-rich (thanks Jacopo!), just that my boss has special > >>>> needs. I'd say we could work together and customize OFBiz for you > >>>> inside of 2 weeks? > >>>> > >>>> Jonathon > >>>> > >>>> Paul Gear wrote: > >>>>> Hi folks, > >>>>> > >>>>> I'm looking at different accounting/business management packages > >>>>> for use > >>>>> in my small business, and i was excited when i found how > >>>>> comprehensive > >>>>> and easy to install opentaps was. > >>>>> > >>>>> However, it is a daunting application for the beginner, and it > >>>>> leads me > >>>>> to ask: is it asking for trouble trying to use it as a small business > >>>>> accounting package? My requirements are fairly simple: invoicing > >>>>> (services only, no inventory), general ledger, and GST tracking > >>>>> for the > >>>>> Australian tax system. > >>>>> > >>>>> I'm a novice Java developer, so i can get through most basic problems > >>>>> OK, but understanding the framework is a bit more complex an > >>>>> undertaking. Am i just creating work for myself thinking that i > >>>>> can use > >>>>> OFBiz/opentaps for my small business? > >>>>> > >>>>> Thanks in advance, > >>>>> Paul > >>>>> <http://paulgear.webhop.net> > >>>>> -- > >>>>> Did you know? Using HTML email rather than plain text is less > >>>>> efficient, taking anywhere from 2 to 20 times longer to download, > >>>>> and a > >>>>> corresponding amount more space on disk. Learn more about using > >>>>> email > >>>>> efficiently at <http://www.expita.com/nomime.html>. > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > > > > > > -- Kind Regards Andrew Sykes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sykes Development Ltd http://www.sykesdevelopment.com
