Hi Jacopo Thanks for the feedback, I'd be more than happy to have that posted on a suitable page. I'll look into it over the weekend.
Regards Scott On 17/08/07, Jacopo Cappellato <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Wow, > > this sounds like a beautiful 'user story', thank you Scott. > It would be great to add it to the OFBiz's 'marketing' pages. > > Jacopo > > Scott Gray wrote: > > Hi Phil > > > > I don't have a lot to add to this except that for myself OFBiz is not so > > difficult to learn if approached from the correct perspective. When I > first > > found OFBiz the first thing I did was try to begin customizing straight > away > > with no real understanding of how the system worked. I quickly realized > I > > was getting nowhere but instead of giving up I just put my > implementation on > > hold and joined the community instead. > > > > I read every email that came through including the commit logs and began > > looking for JIRA issues that I thought I could handle or at least > > investigate. Within a couple of months I understood the general flow of > the > > system and could quickly dive into different features and gain insight > into > > how they functioned. > > > > Now a year and a half later I'm an OFBiz committer, member of the PMC > and my > > implementation is rolling along quite nicely. All of this with no prior > > experience in programming or the software industry and entirely in my > spare > > time of about 5-10 hours per week. > > > > The point I'm trying to make is that the value of contributing to the > > community shouldn't be underestimated, your contributions are reviewed > by > > people with vast amounts of experience using OFBiz which makes their > > suggestions for improvement invaluable. Your questions are also much > more > > likely to be answered (even though in my experience on the lists most > > questions that make any sort of sense usually get an answer) but before > long > > you won't need to be asking too many questions anyway. > > > > Regards > > Scott > > > > On 17/08/07, David E Jones <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> > >> Phil, > >> > >> In other words, OFBiz is more than what you were looking for. > Enterprise > >> class solutions are very different in nature from small business > oriented > >> software. It doesn't sound like you're looking for a Blue Martini or > ATG > >> type of thing, even less an ERP-like solution such as SAP or Oracle > >> Financials, or even something like Great Plains or Navision. Sage > Software > >> is interesting because they have different product lines that draw this > >> line. It sounds like you're looking for something more on a scale > (perhaps > >> not scope) of Sage Peachtree rather than Save Accpac or MAS 90. > >> > >> There is a HUGE difference in how these different types of software are > >> "installed" and used. > >> > >> Just like it was for you it's not uncommon for people to have a bad > >> experience with enterprise class software when they first look at it. > It is > >> WAY more complex than they want. Medium and larger sized businesses > automate > >> things that small businesses often don't even consider. That's the > nature of > >> the business side of things, and the software for different types of > >> businesses has to match the complexity of the businesses it targets. > >> > >> It doesn't mean OFBiz is bad, it's just not what you want. And that's > >> totally fine. Don't worry, I've been discouraging small businesses from > >> using OFBiz for many years now and early on had long conversations with > many > >> of them. > >> > >> It's not that OFBiz has no use in the small business world, but most > small > >> businesses need something that is meant for businesses like theirs, > >> something that takes from a pool of many thousands of data elements and > >> processes and pulls out just the dozens or hundreds they need for their > >> particular business. > >> > >> I'm copying the user mailing list on this just as I did on my last > reply, > >> and as you mentioned you were trying to do. A lot of people run into > this > >> problem. Some respond by realizing their experience was bad because > their > >> expectations were simply not realistic. They adjust their expectations > and > >> their understanding in increases and future related experiences are > better. > >> Some respond by complaining and attacking and their understanding gets > even > >> further away from reality than it was before and future related > experiences > >> get worse and worse. > >> > >> -David > >> > >> > >> Philip Garrow wrote: > >>> Hi David: > >>> > >>> I hope more clearly stated: > >>> > >>> The promise of OfBiz is its use for businesses of all sizes. > >>> > >>> I understand that it is not an OOTB solution, and at the same time I > >> hoped > >>> that my skills in software development and network administration > would > >>> allow me to install and configure and configure OfBiz to have at least > >> some > >>> baseline functionality from which I could learn and study further, > they > >>> weren't. OfBiz is large, complex and beyond my skills to begin > working > >>> with, and being a skilled computer tech, this means they are beyond > all > >> but > >>> the most specifically trained developers. > >>> > >>> Next, I sought developers familiar with OfBiz to develop the back-end > >> for my > >>> business. Their solutions were twice my budget, and once complete > could > >>> only be supported by the small count of developers familiar with > OfBiz. > >>> > >>> Finally, following your advice I posted a request for help to learn > >> OfBiz to > >>> the user list and received no replies, no support for learning OfBiz. > >>> > >>> In the end it made better business sense for me to use a well > supported > >> OOTB > >>> solution, which cost me half the amount to install and configure, even > >> for > >>> my very complex requirements. > >>> > >>> In summation, in my experience there is no circumstance under which I > >> could > >>> recommend OfBiz as a useful tool for running a business or as a useful > >>> course of study for anyone interested in software development for > >> business. > >>> Until the learning curve for OfBiz can be softened, the cost for > >> commercial > >>> development reduced, and the training for new developers better > >> supported, I > >>> feel that OfBiz is just a bunch of Java Macros for a very few software > >>> geeks. > >>> > >>> Despite my initial excitement for using and learning OfBiz, it has > been > >> a > >>> disappointment for me. I hope I was clearer in this letter. > >>> > >>> Regards, Phil Garrow > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>> ---------- > >>> FIGHT BACK AGAINST SPAM! > >>> Download Spam Inspector, the Award Winning Anti-Spam Filter > >>> http://mail.giantcompany.com > >>> > >>> > >>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>> From: David E Jones [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>>> Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2007 7:18 PM > >>>> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>>> Cc: [email protected] > >>>> Subject: Re: Something I tried to post to the list... > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Phil, > >>>> > >>>> Thanks for writing. I'm not sure I understood the idea you were > trying > >> to > >>>> communicate, so let me re-phrase it back to you: > >>>> > >>>> It sounds like you're saying that OFBiz didn't fit your requirements > >> well > >>>> and the complexity and scope seems better suited to businesses larger > >> than > >>>> yours, or maybe more accurately, businesses with more complex and > wider > >>>> scoped software needs than what your business has. > >>>> > >>>> Does that sound about like what you were trying to say? > >>>> > >>>> If so I can totally understand that, and I totally agree with you. > >> OFBiz > >>>> is really not meant to be a system used OOTB by small businesses. We > >> have > >>>> tried to communicate this clearly with text front and center and on > the > >>>> OFBiz home page (http://ofbiz.apache.org) under the "Introduction: > What > >> is > >>>> Apache OFBiz?" heading. > >>>> > >>>> There is a good chance the text there doesn't clearly represent that. > >> Do > >>>> you have any ideas about how we could better communicate this? > >>>> > >>>> -David > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Philip Garrow wrote: > >>>>> Hi David: > >>>>> > >>>>> I tried to post the following message to the list and it bounced > >> saying > >>>> that > >>>>> it looked like spam to the list filters. I don't know what I am > doing > >>>>> wrong; I felt that someone should read this sentiment. > >>>>> > >>>>> Regards, Phil Garrow > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> RE: Help with Ofbiz > >>>>> > >>>>> Hi: > >>>>> > >>>>> I too was excited about Ofbiz when I found out about it. I was > >>>> searching > >>>>> for a web based solution on which to run my business and I thought I > >>>> found > >>>>> it. It turns out that what I found was unuseably complex, although > >>>>> promising. I then sought a programmer to help me customize Ofbiz as > >>>> needed. > >>>>> I, like you, balked at a price tag of nearly $30,000.00 to do the > work > >>>>> needed. I then thought that I would put in the time needed to learn > >>>> Ofbiz > >>>>> to be able to program the back end of my site... and to allow me to > >> earn > >>>>> those high consulting fees. I completed a computer science degree > ten > >>>> years > >>>>> ago and spent a year and a half updating my skills learning Object > >>>> Oriented > >>>>> Programming in Java in 2003. Even with this, I was unable to make > any > >>>>> progress trying to work through David Jones's tutorial. So I posted > >> to > >>>> the > >>>>> Ofbiz list for help getting starting with Ofbiz and got no > replies... > >>>>> nothing... I spent a month reading about Ofbiz, struggling to get > >>>> started, > >>>>> and then decided that my time was really better spent running my > >>>> business > >>>>> rather than put any more time in to this marginally supported > >> framework. > >>>> I > >>>>> sought and found a commercial solution and for less than a third of > >> the > >>>> cost > >>>>> of customizing Ofbiz, and providing almost everything I needed. It > is > >>>> my > >>>>> opinion that until Ofbiz can do what is needed to soften the steep > >>>> start-up > >>>>> curve it will remain just a set of back-end libraries for a small > >> number > >>>> of > >>>>> programmers, not a useful tool for small businesses. Kind of like a > >>>> phrase > >>>>> book for those who study Sanskrit, not fulfilling the promise of > >> making > >>>>> open-source software accessible to the masses. Good luck with > Ofbiz. > >>>> If > >>>>> you are interested in the solution that I found then check out PDG > >>>> Commerce. > >>>>> I don't make a nickel on that suggestion. > >>>>> > >>>>> Just my $0.02 Phil Garrow > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>>> From: EPaulson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2007 5:20 AM > >>>>>> To: [email protected] > >>>>>> Subject: Help with Ofbiz > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I am new to Ofbiz as a user. A few months ago I was fortunate > enough > >>>>>> to have a friend install and configure Ofbiz for my business. I > >>>>>> switched my entire > >>>>>> operation over to the Ofbiz framework out of sheer > >> optimism/excitement > >>>> for > >>>>>> the powerful potention it offers. I have spent countless hours over > >> the > >>>>>> past > >>>>>> few years with toying with different OOTB eCommerce > solutions...only > >> to > >>>>>> find > >>>>>> that there was always some annoying limitation with each and every > >> one > >>>> of > >>>>>> them. Ofbiz, I thought, was going to be the solution I had been > >>>> looking > >>>>>> for > >>>>>> the past several years. Finally...I can have EXACTLY what I need to > >>>>>> operate > >>>>>> my business the way I envision. Now the dilemma.... > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I am not sure if it's the version I am running OR if it's a > >>>>>> configuration issue, but a healthy chunk of Ofbiz features do not > >>>>>> function on my site. To just name one...content management. I > cannot > >>>>>> add alt tags, policy pages,etc. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Now, my friend is too busy to work on my site regardless of an > hourly > >>>>>> fee. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> The seemingly few of dev. familiar with OFB are also too busy. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Documentation/training videos are too advanced for me > unfortunately. > >>>>>> I am willing to put in the time to learn, but I fear that it would > >>>>>> take years for me to get where I need to be in order to customize > OFB > >>>>>> for my business...AND > >>>>>> I don't even know where to begin. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> It's frustrating to be dependant on others that have the necessary > >>>>>> knowledge to help you, BUT they are too busy unless I can un-ass > $30K > >>>>>> on up to become > >>>>>> a top-level project myself. Please understand, I have the utmost > >>>> respect > >>>>>> for anyone that has the knowledge/background necessary to be able > to > >>>>>> navigate through development/implemention of Ofb AND I completely > >>>>>> understand > >>>>>> that small business owners like myself cannot expect the same > >> attention > >>>> as > >>>>>> companies with big budgets. It's unreasonable for me to expect the > >>>> luxury > >>>>>> of > >>>>>> a tailor-made ERP solution without paying what it's worth. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> 1) Is there anyone that has the time AND is willing to spend > one-two > >>>>>> hours per week consulting me on Ofbiz via > phone/email/livechat,etc.? > >>>>>> (walk me through the process of setup/config. and customization > from > >>>>>> time to time. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> If YES or if you have some positive suggestions than please email > me > >>>>>> directly with rates/availability. I would like to delete this post > >>>>>> soon, so please do not respond with a post. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Thank you for taking the time to read this post. > >>>>>> -- > >>>>> No virus found in this outgoing message. > >>>>> Checked by AVG Free Edition. > >>>>> Version: 7.5.484 / Virus Database: 269.11.19/956 - Release Date: > >>>> 8/16/2007 > >>>>> 9:48 AM > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> No virus found in this incoming message. > >>>> Checked by AVG Free Edition. > >>>> Version: 7.5.484 / Virus Database: 269.11.19/956 - Release Date: > >> 8/16/2007 > >>>> 9:48 AM > >>>> > >>> No virus found in this outgoing message. > >>> Checked by AVG Free Edition. > >>> Version: 7.5.484 / Virus Database: 269.11.19/956 - Release Date: > >> 8/16/2007 > >>> 9:48 AM > >>> > >>> > > > > >
