Donations can only be received by the ASF, not by the OFBiz project specifically.
Jacopo On Feb 25, 2010, at 7:22 PM, Ruth Hoffman wrote: > Hi David: > > Glad you asked. I kind-of like how DWR has done it. Open source, Apache 2.0 > with sponsor links very subtle. (http://directwebremoting.org/dwr/index.html) > > Just my opinion. > Ruth > > David E Jones wrote: >> How? >> >> -David >> >> >> On Feb 25, 2010, at 11:03 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote: >> >> >>> David: >>> It doesn't have to be so "black" and "white". You can still have community >>> driven software with the Apache license and enjoy sponsorship from >>> commercial entities. It happens all the time. >>> >>> Ruth >>> >>> David E Jones wrote: >>> >>>> Matt, >>>> >>>> You might be interested to hear that early in the life of OFBiz, and after >>>> technology investing recovered from the lull in 2000-2001, I was >>>> approached by a number of investors who wanted to turn OFBiz into a >>>> commercial open source project instead of a community-driven one (which >>>> would require a change in licensing to the GPL or something similar so >>>> that end-users would have an incentive to purchase licenses; would also >>>> require centralizing and/or license value added services instead of >>>> pushing for an open playing field). However, my intent from the beginning >>>> was to have OFBiz be a community-driven project so I stuck with that. >>>> >>>> Perhaps that was a mistake? >>>> >>>> About this comment: "So if you want an OFBiz solution, pay us and we'll >>>> get you a custom OFBiz solution-- otherwise, don't waste our time." That's >>>> pretty insulting and low-brow. If that were really the case then people >>>> who abandon other ERP software to work on OFBiz wouldn't be doing so >>>> because it is easier to customize... and yes, that is the main reason I >>>> hear from those experienced with other ERP software. Also, there would be >>>> no attempts whatsoever at documentation, and instead there are thousands >>>> of pages of it (in fact, probably too much for most people, making it >>>> harder to find the info they want, leading to complaints of no >>>> documentation when the fact is they just haven't bothered to read it). >>>> >>>> Take a look at the OFBiz service providers page and the PMC and committers >>>> page and see how much overlap there is between them. Here's the spoiler: >>>> there isn't much overlap at all. The vast majority of service providers >>>> never contribute back to the project. The vast majority of the business >>>> around OFBiz results in profit that contributors never see a penny of. If >>>> I were to estimate I'd say it's probably only 1-2% of the money that gets >>>> back to the smaller group that contributes 90% of the code. In other >>>> words, most of the customization work is done by people who don't >>>> contribute to the project, and who don't pay for training or any other >>>> sort of service. They figure it out on their own for the most part. >>>> >>>> On the other hand, if you think you can get my time for free just because >>>> I'm willing to share the intellectual property I create, then you're in >>>> for some big disappointment! And how could it be any other way? >>>> >>>> So here we go... we've got a community-driven project and people want it >>>> to be a commercial project. I've been pushing for years for >>>> community-driven software and trying to attract developers to help build >>>> this thing, and for some history about that and concepts related to it >>>> please see my blog: >>>> >>>> http://osofbiz.blogspot.com/ >>>> >>>> There are a number of posts on this topic, and this one might be of >>>> particular interest: >>>> >>>> http://osofbiz.blogspot.com/2008/01/glass-cathedrals-and-community-versus.html >>>> >>>> So, this gets me back to the question I asked above... was all of this a >>>> mistake? Was I wrong about this approach? Is that the message I'm hearing >>>> more and more? Should I have gone the commercial route with the possibly >>>> higher pay out, and probably much cleaner and fancier looking resulting >>>> software, and significantly more marketing exposure, and at least being >>>> able to get the time of day from technology press folks? >>>> >>>> -David >>>> >>>> >>>> On Feb 24, 2010, at 4:46 PM, Matt Warnock wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> I have to agree with Ruth on this one. The question is, what is the >>>>> OFBiz "community", is it users or developers? The question has lots of >>>>> implications, and deserves careful thought. >>>>> >>>>> If venture capitalists (a community I know something about) are willing >>>>> to invest $3MM euro to increase OpenERP market share, then 1) they see a >>>>> product that can increase its revenues (and profits) by at least 10-100X >>>>> in the next 3-5 years, and 2) they see a path to liquidity (public >>>>> offering or sale), whereby they expect to recoup their investment. >>>>> >>>>> I agree with Jacques that OpenERP is an inferior solution. Yet he loses >>>>> contracts to OpenERP. Why? Partly because OpenERP looks more polished >>>>> and finished, and appearances are in fact important. However, the >>>>> bigger issue is that OpenERP is more user-friendly (meaning more >>>>> inviting to users, who are not developers). >>>>> >>>>> The general perception in the OFBiz community seems to be that if you >>>>> want an ERP solution, you will need to customize it. For that, you need >>>>> a developer, and we are those developers. So if you want an OFBiz >>>>> solution, pay us and we'll get you a custom OFBiz solution-- otherwise, >>>>> don't waste our time. Sorry, but that attitude is ass-backwards. You >>>>> have the cart driving >>>>> the horse. Even record and movie companies (the most ass-backward >>>>> marketing people on the planet) know that they don't get people to buy >>>>> records without radio play, or movie tickets without trailers. Even >>>>> low-life drug dealers grasp the simple marketing concept of the "loss >>>>> leader"-- you can get more people using your product by giving it away >>>>> for free, initially. In my business, we give away lots of free samples >>>>> because it it the best way to get people converted to our products. >>>>> People need to know up front what value they are going to get, and also >>>>> how much it is going to cost. As an end-user with OpenERP, you get that >>>>> information (I looked hard at >>>>> OpenERP a few months ago), but with OFBiz, you really don't. You have >>>>> to look really hard (under the hood) to see the things that make OFBiz >>>>> better, and as developers, you probably all know what those advantages >>>>> are. OFBiz's weaknesses, on the other hand, are right on the surface-- >>>>> the very things that Ruth complains about. Choosing any ERP solution is >>>>> a hard, painful task, and the initial >>>>> difficulty of evaluating and customizing OFBiz makes it a harder choice >>>>> than most. Inertia (personal and institutional) definitely works >>>>> against acceptance and adoption of OFBiz, initially. If OFBiz had a >>>>> polished, truly "OOTB" solution, then users could try it >>>>> and (hopefully) find it immediately useful, at least for some limited >>>>> applications. Once the nose of the camel gets inside the tent, the rest >>>>> of the body will follow. use breeds curiosity, and the incremental cost >>>>> (other than learning curve) of using more features and applications is >>>>> zero, so the learning process is encouraged. Soon, the customer is >>>>> fully committed and using OFBiz for many things, but inevitably, there >>>>> are some customizations they would like to make. Cha-ching! Customers >>>>> create themselves. Instead of a "missionary sale", you have more >>>>> customers than you can service, and they are looking for you, instead of >>>>> the reverse. >>>>> >>>>> That is the difference between OpenERP and OFBiz in a nutshell. From a >>>>> user's perspective, OpenERP delivers benefits first and costs later, >>>>> while OFBiz demands costs up front and delivers the benefits later. >>>>> Which way do you think is the FASTEST path to a LARGE user community? >>>>> The venture capitalists have already cast THEIR vote. On Wed, 2010-02-24 >>>>> at 14:31 -0500, Ruth Hoffman wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi Anil: >>>>>> I'm sure this will start an avalanche of responses all directing vitriol >>>>>> towards me. Rest assured I don't take any attacks personally: >>>>>> >>>>>> First off, IMHO, encouraging community contributions IS a problem for >>>>>> OFBiz. The "community" as you so correctly point out is one of software >>>>>> developers. There is much more to bringing a product to market, or more >>>>>> importantly, surviving to play another day, than software development >>>>>> and copious amounts of code contributed to a source code repository. >>>>>> >>>>>> Secondly, OFBiz will never survive, let alone grow, if there are no new >>>>>> adopters (end-users, service providers or whatever you want to call >>>>>> them). I further argue that the project won't get any new adopters by >>>>>> sticking its collective head in the sand and ignoring real world issues >>>>>> like release management, quality control and my favorite, documentation >>>>>> and training. >>>>>> >>>>>> And to your point about selling "services". I'm curious. Since you >>>>>> brought it up, what services does HotWax sell that help promote the >>>>>> health and well being of the OFBiz project? Or is that not what you do? >>>>>> Maybe I don't understand. >>>>>> >>>>>> Well I for one feel really comfortable saying that I sell a "product" >>>>>> that helps promote the health and well being of OFBiz. Probably the only >>>>>> one out there? Not only that, my product is reasonably priced to >>>>>> encourage new OFBiz adopters. If you can afford to buy a week's worth of >>>>>> Starbuck lattes, you can afford to purchase my product. Does that make >>>>>> me a "Company" backing OFBiz? LOL! >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Regards, >>>>>> Ruth >>>>>> >>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> Find me on the web at http://www.myofbiz.com or Google keyword "myofbiz" >>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Regards, >>>>>> Ruth >>>>>> >>>>>> Anil Patel wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Here is another blog http://news.cnet.com/8301-13505_3-10458449-16.html >>>>>>> >>>>>>> One interesting issue these Company driven projects are struggling >>>>>>> (evedent from reading these blogs) with is, encourage community to >>>>>>> contribute. In Ofbiz we don't have this issue, Ofbiz is build on the >>>>>>> concept of "Community driven software development" I feel confident >>>>>>> that OfBiz will live longer and grow much more quickly then usual >>>>>>> software open source software dragged by corporations. Ofbiz service >>>>>>> providers can focus on their core activity "Sell services", and not >>>>>>> really wonder around to get funding to keep project alive and moving. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks and Regards >>>>>>> Anil Patel >>>>>>> HotWax Media Inc >>>>>>> Find us on the web at www.hotwaxmedia.com or Google Keyword "ofbiz" >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Feb 24, 2010, at 11:14 AM, Anil Patel wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Jacques, >>>>>>>> Why do you think so? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> It does not take too long to use 3M euros. And they are trying to make >>>>>>>> community contribution thing work for them, We got it working for >>>>>>>> years. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> In case of OpenERP, One provider is dominating the community. In case >>>>>>>> of Apache Ofbiz we don't encourage that. Its up to providers to decide >>>>>>>> how they want to use OfBiz for building their business. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Thanks and Regards >>>>>>>> Anil Patel >>>>>>>> HotWax Media Inc >>>>>>>> Find us on the web at www.hotwaxmedia.com or Google Keyword "ofbiz" >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Feb 24, 2010, at 10:15 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Maybe the future of OFBiz in Europe (and even in USA it seems) will >>>>>>>>> be harder... >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> http://fptiny.blogspot.com/2010/02/openerp-raises-3-million-euros.html >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Or maybe this ERP will not be Open-Source longer in the future... >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Actually it was the last of the Open-Source ERPs to not follow this >>>>>>>>> way (though I"m not sure for ERP5) >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The strategy : >>>>>>>>> http://robertogaloppini.net/2009/06/01/open-source-business-strategy-openerp-and-long-term-sustainability/ >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Jacques >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Matt Warnock <[email protected]> >>>>> RidgeCrest Herbals, Inc. >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >> >> >>
