Hi Josh,

I'll second that. You have done some great stuff. The Pivot community would 
undoubtedly benefit much from your involvement.  :-)

Greg


On Sep 28, 2010, at 1:56 PM, Superstring Media wrote:

> Hi Josh Marinacci,
> 
> Yes, the toolkit you described below is necessary, where can I see/get 
> Bedrock?
> 
> Also, please consider joining forces with Apache Pivot. Pivot is a RIA 
> toolkit in the same vein as Flex/Silverlight. Since I can not afford to wait 
> until 2011 Q3 for JavaFX I have had a close look at Pivot, it is substantial 
> and I am very pleased. It includes a retained scenegraph in addition to 
> immediate Java2D rendering, a powerful declarative script system, a ton of 
> controls, skinning and much more.
> 
> I really think that Leonardo and Pivot should work together. its time to make 
> the Java UI and RIA space strong (and unified) again!
> 
> http://leonardosketch.org
> http://pivot.apache.org/index.html
> 
> United we stand stronger,
> 
> Thom
> 
> 
> On 2010-09-28, at 12:09 PM, Josh Marinacci wrote:
> 
>> 
>> On Sep 27, 2010, at 12:17 AM, Michael Zucchi wrote:
>> 
>>> Hi Josh,
>>> 
>>> On 26 September 2010 23:55, Josh Marinacci <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>> Hi guys. I'm sorry I haven't been around to answer questions or work on 
>>>> the next release. I've had a lot of travel lately for Palm (all very good 
>>>> stuff), which has kept me pretty busy.  On the upside I've had the chance 
>>>> to put Leonardo and it's yet-to-be-named UI toolkit in from of a lot of 
>>>> great people.  I'll be back home today and ready to dive back into 
>>>> Leonardo this week.
>>> 
>>> I'm curious as to why you're writing your own toolkit.  After having
>>> used a few other toolkits (gtk+, wpf, older stuff), swing isn't really
>>> all that bad.  And even if it wasn't that hot it'll still take a hell
>>> of an effort to get something which is complete enough to write a GUI
>>> heavy application with.  It made some sense for The Gimp to write
>>> their own toolkit, but the world is very different now and it just
>>> seems like such a large amount of redundant effort when there is quite
>>> a lot of other (possibly more interesting) stuff to work on.
>>> 
>> 
>> That is an excellent question.  
>> 
>> In the short term I started writing a new toolkit because I couldn't get 
>> Swing and JavaFX to do what I wanted for Leonardo. Long term, it's about 
>> freedom. Both technical and legal freedom.  We need the technical freedom to 
>> mix graphics with components, mix 2d with 3d, to skin our gui's with proper 
>> CSS, and more.  We also need legal freedom. The new JavaFX 2.0 (once 
>> released in a year) actually sounds pretty similar to my plans for this 
>> toolkit. The major difference is that mine is BSD, whereas Oracle's cannot 
>> be redistributed and runs only on Sun's VM.  My toolkit (currently called 
>> Bedrock), gives you the freedom to run it anywhere you want, including 
>> bundling it with an alternative JVM like GCJ, Kaffe/Harmony, or Avian. You 
>> could event embed it into a phone.  JavaFX, sadly, still does not let you do 
>> this.
>> 
>> I want to clarify that this toolkit isn't truly new. Everything in it is 
>> straight forward and not innovative. My goal was to take the best ideas of 
>> UI toolkits from the past 20 years and put them into a single library 
>> without any backwards compatibility concerns.  The innovation is in the 
>> choosing and bundling, not the core concepts.  My goal is for developers to 
>> be able to create desktop apps that look and perform so well that end users 
>> will never know they are written in Java.
>> 
>> In terms of time to build it, I've done it entirely by myself over the past 
>> few months. It wasn't as hard as I expected, though that partly stems from 
>> having worked on the Swing and JavaFX teams for five years.  Once the 
>> project is open I hope to get more contributors to polish it up and push it 
>> forward with new stuff.
>> 
>> 
>>>> BTW, any feature requests for the next beta?
>>> 
>>> Having 'delete' as the first and usually-automatically-selected item
>>> in the context menu isn't too hot, I kept deleting stuff before I
>>> realised what was even happening.  Also the transparency on the popup
>>> context boxes is too transparent.  e.g. you can't read the black
>>> writing if it opens up over a black object.  Same with the red spline
>>> handlers over a red object.
>> 
>> Great feedback. Keep it coming. Thanks!
>> 
>> - j
>> 
>>> 
>>> Cheers,
>>> Michael
>> 
>> Blasting forth in three part harmony!
>> 
> 

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