I do think creating a new Slack channel would be helpful because it would allow us to create multiple channels for different topics - streaming, graph, ML, etc.
We would need a volunteer core to maintain it so we can keep the spirit and letter of ASF / code of conduct. I’d be glad to volunteer to keep this active. On Mon, Apr 3, 2023 at 16:46 Dongjoon Hyun <dongjoon.h...@gmail.com> wrote: > Shall we summarize the discussion so far? > > To sum up, "ASF Slack" vs "3rd-party Slack" was the real background to > initiate this thread instead of "Slack" vs "Mailing list"? > > If ASF Slack provides what you need, is it better than creating a > new Slack channel? > > Or, is there another reason for us to create a new Slack channel? > > Dongjoon. > > > On Mon, Apr 3, 2023 at 3:27 PM Mich Talebzadeh <mich.talebza...@gmail.com> > wrote: > >> I agree, whatever individual sentiments are. >> >> Mich Talebzadeh, >> Lead Solutions Architect/Engineering Lead >> Palantir Technologies Limited >> >> >> view my Linkedin profile >> <https://www.linkedin.com/in/mich-talebzadeh-ph-d-5205b2/> >> >> >> https://en.everybodywiki.com/Mich_Talebzadeh >> >> >> >> *Disclaimer:* Use it at your own risk. Any and all responsibility for >> any loss, damage or destruction of data or any other property which may >> arise from relying on this email's technical content is explicitly >> disclaimed. The author will in no case be liable for any monetary damages >> arising from such loss, damage or destruction. >> >> >> >> >> On Mon, 3 Apr 2023 at 23:21, Jungtaek Lim <kabhwan.opensou...@gmail.com> >> wrote: >> >>> Just to be clear, if there is no strong volunteer to make the new >>> community channel stay active, I'd probably be OK to not fork the channel. >>> You can see a strong counter example from #spark channel in ASF. It is the >>> place where there are only questions and promos but zero answers. I see >>> volunteers here demanding for another channel, so I want to see us go with >>> the most preferred way for these volunteers. >>> >>> User mailing list does not go in a good shape. I hope we give another >>> try with recent technology to see whether we can gain traction - if we >>> fail, the user mailing list will still be there. >>> >>> On Tue, Apr 4, 2023 at 7:04 AM Jungtaek Lim < >>> kabhwan.opensou...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> The number of subscribers doesn't give any meaningful value. Please >>>> look into the number of mails being sent to the list. >>>> >>>> https://lists.apache.org/list.html?user@spark.apache.org >>>> The latest month there were more than 200 emails being sent was Feb >>>> 2022, more than a year ago. It was more than 1k in 2016, and more than 2k >>>> in 2015 and earlier. >>>> Let's face the fact. User mailing list is dying, even before we start >>>> discussion about alternative communication methods. >>>> >>>> Users never go with the way if it's just because PMC members (or ASF) >>>> have preference. They are going with the way they are convenient. >>>> >>>> Same applies here - if ASF Slack requires a restricted invitation >>>> mechanism then it won't work. Looks like there is a link for an invitation, >>>> but we are also talking about the cost as well. >>>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/INFRA/Slack+Guest+Invites >>>> As long as we are being serious about the cost, I don't think we are >>>> going to land in the way "users" are convenient. >>>> >>>> On Tue, Apr 4, 2023 at 4:59 AM Dongjoon Hyun <dongjoon.h...@gmail.com> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> As Mich Talebzadeh pointed out, Apache Spark has an official Slack >>>>> channel. >>>>> >>>>> > It's unavoidable if "users" prefer to use an alternative >>>>> communication mechanism rather than the user mailing list. >>>>> >>>>> The following is the number of people in the official channels. >>>>> >>>>> - user@spark.apache.org has 4519 subscribers. >>>>> - d...@spark.apache.org has 3149 subscribers. >>>>> - ASF Official Slack channel has 602 subscribers. >>>>> >>>>> May I ask if the users prefer to use the ASF Official Slack channel >>>>> than the user mailing list? >>>>> >>>>> Dongjoon. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Mar 30, 2023 at 9:10 PM Jungtaek Lim < >>>>> kabhwan.opensou...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I'm reading through the page "Briefing: The Apache Way", and in the >>>>>> section of "Open Communications", restriction of communication inside ASF >>>>>> INFRA (mailing list) is more about code and decision-making. >>>>>> >>>>>> https://www.apache.org/theapacheway/#what-makes-the-apache-way-so-hard-to-define >>>>>> >>>>>> It's unavoidable if "users" prefer to use an alternative >>>>>> communication mechanism rather than the user mailing list. Before Stack >>>>>> Overflow days, there had been a meaningful number of questions around >>>>>> user@. >>>>>> It's just impossible to let them go back and post to the user mailing >>>>>> list. >>>>>> >>>>>> We just need to make sure it is not the purpose of employing Slack to >>>>>> move all discussions about developments, direction of the project, etc >>>>>> which must happen in dev@/private@. The purpose of Slack thread here >>>>>> does not seem to aim to serve the purpose. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Fri, Mar 31, 2023 at 7:00 AM Mich Talebzadeh < >>>>>> mich.talebza...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Good discussions and proposals.all around. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I have used slack in anger on a customer site before. For small and >>>>>>> medium size groups it is good and affordable. Alternatives have been >>>>>>> suggested as well so those who like investigative search can agree and >>>>>>> come >>>>>>> up with a freebie one. >>>>>>> I am inclined to agree with Bjorn that this slack has more social >>>>>>> dimensions than the mailing list. It is akin to a sports club using >>>>>>> WhatsApp groups for communication. Remember we were originally looking >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> space for webinars, including Spark on Linkedin that Denney Lee >>>>>>> suggested. >>>>>>> I think Slack and mailing groups can coexist happily. On a more serious >>>>>>> note, when I joined the user group back in 2015-2016, there was a lot of >>>>>>> traffic. Currently we hardly get many mails daily <> less than 5. So >>>>>>> having >>>>>>> a slack type medium may improve members participation. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> so +1 for me as well. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Mich Talebzadeh, >>>>>>> Lead Solutions Architect/Engineering Lead >>>>>>> Palantir Technologies Limited >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> view my Linkedin profile >>>>>>> <https://www.linkedin.com/in/mich-talebzadeh-ph-d-5205b2/> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> https://en.everybodywiki.com/Mich_Talebzadeh >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> *Disclaimer:* Use it at your own risk. Any and all responsibility >>>>>>> for any loss, damage or destruction of data or any other property which >>>>>>> may >>>>>>> arise from relying on this email's technical content is explicitly >>>>>>> disclaimed. The author will in no case be liable for any monetary >>>>>>> damages >>>>>>> arising from such loss, damage or destruction. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Thu, 30 Mar 2023 at 22:19, Denny Lee <denny.g....@gmail.com> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> +1. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> To Shani’s point, there are multiple OSS projects that use the free >>>>>>>> Slack version - top of mind include Delta, Presto, Flink, Trino, >>>>>>>> Datahub, >>>>>>>> MLflow, etc. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Thu, Mar 30, 2023 at 14:15 <shani.alis...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Hey everyone, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I think we should remain on a free program in slack. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> In my option the free program is more then enough, the only down >>>>>>>>> side is we could only see the last 90 days messages. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> From what I know the Airflow community (which has strong active >>>>>>>>> community in slack) also use the free program (You can tell by the 90 >>>>>>>>> days >>>>>>>>> limit notice in their workspace). >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> You can find the pricing and features comparison between the slack >>>>>>>>> programs here <https://slack.com/intl/en-gb/pricing> . >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Have a great day, >>>>>>>>> Shani >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 30 Mar 2023, at 23:38, Mridul Muralidharan <mri...@gmail.com> >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Thanks for flagging the concern Dongjoon, I was not aware of the >>>>>>>>> discussion - but I can understand the concern. >>>>>>>>> Would be great if you or Matei could update the thread on the >>>>>>>>> result of deliberations, once it reaches a logical consensus: before >>>>>>>>> we set >>>>>>>>> up official policy around it. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Regards, >>>>>>>>> Mridul >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Thu, Mar 30, 2023 at 4:23 PM Bjørn Jørgensen < >>>>>>>>> bjornjorgen...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I like the idea of having a talk channel. It can make it easier >>>>>>>>>> for everyone to say hello. Or to dare to ask about small or big >>>>>>>>>> matters >>>>>>>>>> that you would not have dared to ask about before on mailing lists. >>>>>>>>>> But then there is the price and what is the best for an open >>>>>>>>>> source project. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> The price for using slack is expensive. >>>>>>>>>> Right now for those that have join spark slack >>>>>>>>>> $8.75 USD >>>>>>>>>> 72 members >>>>>>>>>> 1 month >>>>>>>>>> $630 USD >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> https://app.slack.com/plans/T04URTRBZ1R/checkout/form?entry_point=hero_banner_upgrade_cta&s=2 >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> And they - slack does not have an option for open source >>>>>>>>>> projects. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> There seems to be some alternatives for open source software. I >>>>>>>>>> have not tried it. >>>>>>>>>> Like https://www.rocket.chat/blog/slack-open-source-alternatives >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> <image.png> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> rocket chat is open source >>>>>>>>>> https://github.com/RocketChat/Rocket.Chat >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> tor. 30. mar. 2023 kl. 18:54 skrev Mich Talebzadeh < >>>>>>>>>> mich.talebza...@gmail.com>: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Hi Dongjoon >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> to your points if I may >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> - Do you have any reference from other official ASF-related >>>>>>>>>>> Slack channels? >>>>>>>>>>> No, I don't have any reference from other official >>>>>>>>>>> ASF-related Slack channels because I don't think that matters. >>>>>>>>>>> However, I >>>>>>>>>>> stand corrected >>>>>>>>>>> - To be clear, I intentionally didn't refer to any specific >>>>>>>>>>> mailing list because we didn't set up any rule here yet. >>>>>>>>>>> fair enough >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> going back to your original point >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> ..There is a concern expressed by ASF board because recent Slack >>>>>>>>>>> activities created an isolated silo outside of ASF mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> archive... >>>>>>>>>>> Well, there are activities on Spark and indeed other open source >>>>>>>>>>> software everywhere. One way or other they do help getting community >>>>>>>>>>> (inside the user groups and other) to get interested and involved. >>>>>>>>>>> Slack >>>>>>>>>>> happens to be one of them. >>>>>>>>>>> I am of the opinion that creating such silos is already a >>>>>>>>>>> reality and we ought to be pragmatic. Unless there is an overriding >>>>>>>>>>> reason, >>>>>>>>>>> we should embrace it as slack can co-exist with the other mailing >>>>>>>>>>> lists and >>>>>>>>>>> channels like linkedin etc. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Hope this clarifies my position >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Mich Talebzadeh, >>>>>>>>>>> Lead Solutions Architect/Engineering Lead >>>>>>>>>>> Palantir Technologies Limited >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> view my Linkedin profile >>>>>>>>>>> <https://www.linkedin.com/in/mich-talebzadeh-ph-d-5205b2/> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> https://en.everybodywiki.com/Mich_Talebzadeh >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> *Disclaimer:* Use it at your own risk. Any and all >>>>>>>>>>> responsibility for any loss, damage or destruction of data or any >>>>>>>>>>> other >>>>>>>>>>> property which may arise from relying on this email's technical >>>>>>>>>>> content is >>>>>>>>>>> explicitly disclaimed. The author will in no case be liable for any >>>>>>>>>>> monetary damages arising from such loss, damage or destruction. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 30 Mar 2023 at 17:28, Dongjoon Hyun < >>>>>>>>>>> dongjoon.h...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> To Mich. >>>>>>>>>>>> - Do you have any reference from other official ASF-related >>>>>>>>>>>> Slack channels? >>>>>>>>>>>> - To be clear, I intentionally didn't refer to any specific >>>>>>>>>>>> mailing list because we didn't set up any rule here yet. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> To Xiao. I understand what you mean. That's the reason why I >>>>>>>>>>>> added Matei from your side. >>>>>>>>>>>> > I did not see an objection from the ASF board. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> There is on-going discussion about the communication channels >>>>>>>>>>>> outside ASF email which is specifically concerning Slack. >>>>>>>>>>>> Please hold on any official action for this topic. We will know >>>>>>>>>>>> how to support it seamlessly. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Dongjoon. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Mar 30, 2023 at 9:21 AM Xiao Li <gatorsm...@gmail.com> >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi, Dongjoon, >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> The other communities (e.g., Pinot, Druid, Flink) created >>>>>>>>>>>>> their own Slack workspaces last year. I did not see an objection >>>>>>>>>>>>> from the >>>>>>>>>>>>> ASF board. At the same time, Slack workspaces are very popular >>>>>>>>>>>>> and useful >>>>>>>>>>>>> in most non-ASF open source communities. TBH, we are kind of >>>>>>>>>>>>> late. I think >>>>>>>>>>>>> we can do the same in our community? >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> We can follow the guide when the ASF has an official process >>>>>>>>>>>>> for ASF archiving. Since our PMC are the owner of the slack >>>>>>>>>>>>> workspace, we >>>>>>>>>>>>> can make a change based on the policy. WDYT? >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Xiao >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Dongjoon Hyun <dongjoon.h...@gmail.com> 于2023年3月30日周四 09:03写道： >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi, Xiao and all. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> (cc Matei) >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Please hold on the vote. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> There is a concern expressed by ASF board because recent >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Slack activities created an isolated silo outside of ASF mailing >>>>>>>>>>>>>> list >>>>>>>>>>>>>> archive. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> We need to establish a way to embrace it back to ASF archive >>>>>>>>>>>>>> before starting anything official. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bests, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dongjoon. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Mar 29, 2023 at 11:32 PM Xiao Li < >>>>>>>>>>>>>> gatorsm...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> +1 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> + @d...@spark.apache.org <d...@spark.apache.org> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This is a good idea. The other Apache projects (e.g., Pinot, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Druid, Flink) have created their own dedicated Slack workspaces >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for faster >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> communication. We can do the same in Apache Spark. The Slack >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> workspace will >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be maintained by the Apache Spark PMC. I propose to initiate a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> vote for the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> creation of a new Apache Spark Slack workspace. Does that sound >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> good? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Xiao >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mich Talebzadeh <mich.talebza...@gmail.com> 于2023年3月28日周二 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 07:07写道： >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I created one at slack called pyspark >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mich Talebzadeh, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lead Solutions Architect/Engineering Lead >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Palantir Technologies Limited >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> view my Linkedin profile >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://www.linkedin.com/in/mich-talebzadeh-ph-d-5205b2/> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://en.everybodywiki.com/Mich_Talebzadeh >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Disclaimer:* Use it at your own risk. Any and all >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> responsibility for any loss, damage or destruction of data or >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> any other >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> property which may arise from relying on this email's >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> technical content is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> explicitly disclaimed. The author will in no case be liable >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for any >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> monetary damages arising from such loss, damage or destruction. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 28 Mar 2023 at 03:52, asma zgolli < >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> zgollia...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> +1 good idea, I d like to join as well. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Le mar. 28 mars 2023 à 04:09, Winston Lai < >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> weiruanl...@gmail.com> a écrit : >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Please let us know when the channel is created. I'd like >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to join :) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thank You & Best Regards >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Winston Lai >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *From:* Denny Lee <denny.g....@gmail.com> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, March 28, 2023 9:43:08 AM >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *To:* Hyukjin Kwon <gurwls...@gmail.com> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Cc:* keen <kee...@gmx.net>; user@spark.apache.org < >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> user@spark.apache.org> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Subject:* Re: Slack for PySpark users >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> +1 I think this is a great idea! >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Mar 27, 2023 at 6:24 PM Hyukjin Kwon < >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> gurwls...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yeah, actually I think we should better have a slack >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> channel so we can easily discuss with users and developers. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 28 Mar 2023 at 03:08, keen <kee...@gmx.net> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I really like *Slack *as communication channel for a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tech community. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There is a Slack workspace for *delta lake users* ( >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://go.delta.io/slack) that I enjoy a lot. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I was wondering if there is something similar for PySpark >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> users. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If not, would there be anything wrong with creating a new >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Slack workspace for PySpark users? (when explicitly >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mentioning that this is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *not* officially part of Apache Spark)? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Martin >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Asma ZGOLLI >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ph.D. in Big Data - Applied Machine Learning >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> Bjørn Jørgensen >>>>>>>>>> Vestre Aspehaug 4 >>>>>>>>>> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/Vestre+Aspehaug+4?entry=gmail&source=g>, >>>>>>>>>> 6010 Ålesund >>>>>>>>>> Norge >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> +47 480 94 297 >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>
