Various people's comments are interspersed with my own below...
What intrigues me about JSF which I haven't been able to find out yet, is whether JSF is also only meant for light-weight apps. Does JSF's tendency towards page-driven Commands Pattern implementation as Craig mentioned put it in danger of encouraging such Bitter Java anti-patterns?
I also gather that JSF's Controller implementation of the MVC framework is not nearly as robust as the Struts implementation. Would a large application that wanted to use JSF also need Struts?
I think this is exactly the point. JSF's controller model may not scale to a large application. However, in the Shale proposal, JSF's controller model is only being asked to control the view. Right now, Struts doesn't have a separate concept of a "view controller," and I am finding that a limitation. I would like a clean facility for prepopulating forms from system data which interoperates with the existing mechanism for prepopulating forms when validation fails and the user must try again. I would also like a clean mechanism for doing certain kinds of page preparation based on the destination page rather than the processing action. I feel that this cleans things up and supports a nicer separation of concerns. Neither of these is easy in Struts today, and I think the way forward is to more explicitly model a "view controller" subcomponent. I think Craig believes that JSF has already done that. I still have to find out for myself.
Aren't Struts and JSF in the end really competitors? Seems so to me. I cannot see them merging in any sensible solution.
No, I don't think so. JSF is primarily focused on the view. Struts is only partially focused on the view. I think it's plausible that they could cooperate, even though I haven't yet decided that that's the best way forward. As noted above, I suspect that trying to use JSF as a complete controller solution would lead to the same kinds of problems people had in "Model 1" (JSP-centered) development.
I don't think that this note by "Vinny" is unimportant. I like the idea of something like JSF for the view. I am not sure I like the controller architecture which it uses and which, i think, ultimately is a choice inconsistent with Struts, which I like.
Personally, I agree that using JSF simply because it will be including in J2EE 1.5 (or 5.0) isn't reason enough. But can you elaborate on *why* you don't like the controller architecture that JSF uses, and why it's inconsistent with Struts?
I still feel pretty ambivalent about depending on JSF for Shale, but while Craig has defended his arguments, I haven't heard many serious points against it. Maybe everyone else needs time, like I do, to really absorb the implications and look at some real scenarios -- Craig does have a sort of "unfair advantage" given his deep involvement in both Struts and JSF. But still, I'd like to hear some more substantial arguments against than have come up yet.
Joe
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Joe Germuska
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://blog.germuska.com
"In fact, when I die, if I don't hear 'A Love Supreme,' I'll turn back; I'll know I'm in the wrong place."
- Carlos Santana
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