On Mon, 2005-09-12 at 06:23 -0400, Ted Husted wrote:
> On 9/10/05, Leon Rosenberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > I agree with Frank that, what Ted says, is nice and right and everything,
> > but it's the theory. The real life shows it's cold shoulder.
> > 
> > I don't know whether my example fits your question, but at least it fits the
> > topic of the thread, so it came in handy.
> > As you might know, or not know, there is an issue with tomcat 5. To make it
> > short:
> > You can not use struts (or probably most other jakarta projects) with tomcat
> > 5. The issue has been submitted. There is a patch available. The bug became
> > 16 votes (btw. some struts commiters voted too), which is by far most votes
> > on open tomcat 5 bugs right now.
> > So far to the community part. The tomcat developers or probably the tomcat
> > developer in lead, Remy Maucherat, refuses to fix it.
> > So who really decides? Anyone, but not the community and not the users. (And
> > please don't think that struts is safe from that)
> 
> Looking over the bugzilla ticket, which was posted on Friday, it looks
> like a healthy discussion to me. Sure, one committer wants the ticket
> to go away, but he is being overruled. If not by the other committers,
> certainly by users. Any Tomcat committer can apply that patch. It's
> not a heirarchy. One comitter does not need to ask another for
> permission to make a change.

So we just have to find a willing committer? :-) Maybe you know one? :-)
Btw, the issue is still resolved as invalid, so it doesn't look like
someone has been overruled... I mean tomcat developers / committers
(surely not all, but those involved) simply closed the case...

> 
> In this particular instance, there seems to a problem with the
> specification. Unfortunately, the last I knew, the scope of the Tomcat
> project including staying in line with the specification. So, if
> someone did apply the patch, a PMC member could veto it on that
> technical ground. If another PMC member seconds the veto, then the
> patch would have be undone.

Well, this seems in fact being a spec interpretation issue. However, the
bug fix wouldn't harm the spec, because it seems that both cases are
valid. And in my personal opinion Frank's post hits the problem best:

spec or not, if I call session.getAttribute() or setAttribute
() in a servlet or Struts Action or whatnot, I do not expect there to be any 
chance of the internal data structures getting corrupted... and I do not 
expect to have to do anything myself to ensure any of this...

And I think there is no PMC for tomcat?

> 
> But, if not for the specification issue, any Tomcat committer could
> apply that patch. If  a PMC member tries to undo another member's
> change, without a technical justification, the likely result will be
> loss of his or her Apache account. We've seen that happen before. The
> ASF board wouldn't rule on a technical issue, but if one project
> member tries to run the project solo, that member is shown the door.

Still I miss the "one" committer :-)

> 
> As it stands, in the span of three days, there seems to be available
> to the public
> 
> * A patch that users can apply it to their own copy of Tomcat. 
> * A suggestion for a compiled patch that people could just put in
> their classpath.
> * A change people can make to the configuation file that solves the problem. 

The last one will probably exists in future versions, no committment
when... or "if at all".

> 
> If nothing changes by Wednesday, if it were me, I'd submit a patch to
> the documentation summarizing the issue and pointing to the ticket.

How can I submit a patch to the documentation?

> I'd also start a thread on Tomcat User to be sure people know about
> the problem. (Being careful to take that tact: Alert people of the
> problem, without complaining that no one will apply the patch.)

Will do.

> 
> You might also encourage people to send in their request to clarify
> the specification, as Craig has already done. If the specification is
> clarified, then the patch is veto-proof. All you need is one Tomcat
> PMC member who will apply it, and the deed is done.

I sent a request to sun myself too, and guess what answer i got... none
at all.

> 
> If the issue is not resolved by the time the next release vote comes
> around, if it were me, I'd vote -1 on the release and encourage
> everyone involved in the bugzilla ticket and user thread to do the
> same. The -1s won't be binding, but if the users outvote the
> committers by a wide margin, people will start to wake up and smell
> the coffee.

will do.

> 
> (Did someone say coffee?...)

great idea :-) entering *coffee dreaming, moving in the kitchen mode
now*

best regards
Leon

> 
> --  HTH, Ted.
> http://www.husted.com/poe/
> 
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