On Tue, December 13, 2005 10:40 am, Chris McCormack said: > Frank - > When JSF matures and you have looked over it again a few times, but > possibly > still not had your epiphany. Would you remain happy with the technologies > you know now to see you through the seemingly Shale/JSF dominated future > of > Java web frameworks?
The future in my opinion is RIA's, and as yet no one has shown me why JSF is better for this than Struts. I have not personally run into all the supposed limitations of the current model, and I regularly develop highly complex RIA's, that's how I make my living. So, for me, JSF doesn't offer me anything that I absolutely need today. What it *does* offer that is worthwild can be done just as easily with Struts... managed bean support is available through Spring or my own DependencyFilter in Java Web Parts... component-based development can be accomplished any number of ways outside JSF, etc., so on and so forth for virtually every part of JSF. The funny thing is, if you change your approach and mindset about web development just a little bit, then many of the problems JSF seeks to solve go away anyway. When you stop thinking in terms of whole page refreshes and strictly server-side actions, JSF, in my opinion anyway, doesn't offer a whole lot, and you can do all of this with Struts today. Granted, you will have to do more of the work, and that is one area where JSF has a clear advantage, but it is just a doable with JSF as with ultimately, and so I have no worries about the future with or without JSF. I don't know what the future will hold. JSF may win the day on nothing but marketing alone. It has the force of being a "standard", and while not all standards ultimately succeed, it certainly is a leg up on other options. And again, I'm not closed-minded about it... there may come a day when I look back on everything bad I've ever said about JSF and go "what in the BLUE HELL was I thinking?!?". It's hard to envision that day coming to pass, but it could. One thing I know for sure is I'm not going to get to that point based on what others tell me I should think of JSF. If I'm ever a full-blown JSF supporter it will be because I see where it solves problems that can't be solved just as good, or even better, without it. > I think the question that no-one has asked is what happens if you don't > learn and embrace JSF now and get it on your list of skills? > Even if you despise it (I have no preference yet), is it not a good move > to > get familiar with it regardless (if you can)? That's just hedging your bet, and any smart person will be doing that :) That's part of the reason I keep playing with it. Besides, you will be in a much better position to make an intelligent decision either way about it if you are familiar with it. Your opinion may change the more you learn about it too. Some people say the learning curve for JSF is less than for Struts, and I don't think I agree with that. But its a curve worth navigating in any case, just so you can decide for yourself intelligently. >>From my perspective JSF seems like it is going to become quite a large >> part > of the scene for a while until it is usurped by something greater. As > Craig > pointed out in a previous post though, as struts has, JSF might dominate > for > a good 5 years or more and be THE predominate framework that people choose > to use just as struts classic has been. Yes, it absolutely could turn out that way. Like I said in another post though, JSF isn't exactly new. So you do have to wonder, if it really was destined to be the next de facto standard in Java web development, as Struts is today, what's taking so long? On that note, JSF 2.0 *does* hold some significant promise. The original spec, from my understanding, had a fairly narrow focus. They just wanted to get the component model right, that was the primary goal. So, there are holes, or maybe more precisely weak spots, in the current spec. Shale addresses many of those areas, and the new spec rev is supposed to do the same thing. For me, I'll be interested to see what 2.0 looks like because it is at that point that JSF might actually start fulfilling some promise for me. Frank > Chris > -----Original Message----- > From: Frank W. Zammetti [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: 13 December 2005 15:17 > To: Struts Users Mailing List > Subject: Re: Is JSF ready? > > On Tue, December 13, 2005 7:27 am, Alexandre Poitras said: >> One advice, there's a lot of FUD spread around JSF right now >> so try it by yourselft first before listening to other people. > > This is perhaps the best bit of advice anyone could give. For whatever > reason, JSF has engendered a great deal of strong feelings on both sides > of the like it/love it fence. Do yourself a favor and don't even bother > with opinions at this point. Just play with it and see what you think. > > One seemingly universal truth is that if you are going to like it, chances > are it will take a little while. I haven't talked to many people that > instantly loved it, but I have spoken to numerous people who didn't like > it at first and gradually they came to like it a great deal. So give it a > fair shake before you decide. > > If you really want another opinion for your tally sheet, put me down as > not a big fan. My JSF experiences have not been encouraging, but notice I > said experienceS... I keep going back and giving it another shot, hoping > the epiphany that many people seem to have will hit me too. It hasn't yet > though. It seems that for everything I see that is good about it, I find > something that I think is bad, so on balance I remain unconvinced. > > But, my opinion is no better than anyone else', so give it a try yourself, > and give it some time to grow on you, and see if it does. > > Frank > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > This email originated externally and has been scanned by MessageLabs > > ______________________________ > This email has been scanned for all viruses by the MessageLabs SkyScan > service. 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