<snip> On 1/8/06, Mark Lowe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Its not about the inner workings, its about what it does. > </snip>
If this were the case, Mark, then there would be virtually no difference between any of the solutions. You could just do anything at all that got the result and that would be fine. This negates the whole enterprise. If this is so, just roll your own. It will do whatever Struts, Spring, etc. do. I don't see how you can possibly say this. It's all about how well, how efficiently, how easy to maintain, how reliable, how flexible, etc., down through all the ilities. What it does is easy to achieve. That has nothing to do with anything much at all. But, since you think this, I better understand what you are thinking. > Mark > > On 1/8/06, Dakota Jack <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > See within: > > > > On 1/7/06, Mark Lowe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > <snip> > > > > > Both struts and jsf provide a means of handling form submissons, that > > > seems pretty view controller to me. > > </snip> > > > > ANY framework has to provide a "means" of handling form > submissions. That > > has nothing whatsoever to do with controllers, view controllers, or > > whatever. Check out > > http://java.sun.com/blueprints/corej2eepatterns/Patterns/index.html. > > > > > > <snip> > > > I dont get how everything's so > > > black and white and/or chalk and cheese. > > </snip> > > > > I have no idea what this is talking about. I certainly don't think > anyone > > who sees what is going on thinks that the controller mechanism in Struts > is > > anything like that in JSF. That is a huge confusion that makes no > sense. I > > cannot even imagine how one would get to that wrong-headed position. I > do > > know that the page-centric boys early on in JSF decided to talk like a > view > > controller in their scheme of things was like a real controller, but > that > > was poopooed ad abnitia. > > <snip> > > > Sure you define views in jsf, > > > and you can mess with more than just the forms, but are the > > > differences really as profound or their similarities really comparable > > > to VB and C++? Sorry I dont get it. When coding jsf and struts struff > > > I get the feeling that I'm being abstracted from the servlet spec. > > > > </snip> > > > > Apparently you don't know how these things work. If you did, their > huge > > differences would be and have to be immediately apparent. > > <snip> > > > What IDE vendors do is their affair, they've been trying to make > > > coding brain dead for years and I doubt thats going to stop (note: I'm > > > not saying that if someone uses an ide s/he is brain dead). But thats > > > how JSF and struts are supported by IDE vendors not what they are in > > > themselves, is a motorway made with tarmac or cars? > > </snip> > > > > You don't get it, Mark. VB was made for the IDE vendors and SO WAS > JSF, in > > order to try a sort of competition with the .NET vendor yearning. This > is > > not a case where the IDE people are off on the sidelines playing their > own > > game. WIthout the IDE stuff, JSF is pretty much junk. No one seriously > > thinks it is better on the merits of how it works. At least I hope no > one > > is that deluded. It will be better, if at all, based on its ease of use > for > > people without many skills. > > <snip> > > > Like i said before, C++ and VB like struts and jsf, sorry I'm trying > > > to get it but I'm not there yet.. While I know there are differences > > > between jsf and struts, I dont think they are as profound as you've > > > stated. > > </snip> > > > > I think you have to go look at how they are built. Surely you don't > know > > or you could not say this, Mark. They are night and day. That is not > even > > a debate in my opinion. The hope early on was for JSF to obfuscate this > > difference so it could purloin the Struts good name. That worked to a > > certain extent. > > <snip> > > > > Amen, brother. I wish Mark would see this. > > > > > > So do I, I guess I'll have to keep at it, and maybe one day I can > > > become just like you :o) More seriously I'd really like what I'm > > > missing clarifed as there's obviously something I haven't understood. > > > > > > Mark > > </snip> > > > > Again, apparently you just don't have a knowledge of the basic workings > of > > the two frameworks. > > > > > > > On 1/7/06, Dakota Jack <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > wrote: > > > > Amen, brother. I wish Mark would see this. > > > > > > > > > > > > On 1/7/06, Martin Gainty <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > let me assure you VB isnt the only course designed for tech > support > > people > > > > > wedged between auto-shop and recess > > > > > yesterday I was prevented from implementing a script because the > > > > individual > > > > > didnt want to grant me permissions to the ** directory > > > > > i.e. The LAST thing I want to do is to make this person PRODUCTIVE > > > > > > > > > > Yes I have learned that obfuscation and confusion are more than > > acceptable > > > > > substitutes for generating working code > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: "Mark Lowe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > To: "Struts Users Mailing List" < user@struts.apache.org> > > > > > Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2006 6:44 AM > > > > > Subject: Re: Advice for Struts expert wanting to try Shale? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 1/7/06, Dakota Jack <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > JSF is page centric rather than Action centric. There is no > > controller > > > > as > > > > > > you understand that in Struts with JSF. JSF is for a tool > based, > > dumbed > > > > > > down, approach: JSF is to Struts as Visual Basic is to C++. > > > > > > > > > > JSF is more page centric than struts, but they aren't chalk and > > > > > cheese. The view controller is still in the backing bean and then > > > > > mapping of outcome to jsp is done via xml configuration. How page > or > > > > > controller centric you want jsf to be is upto you, this is where > the > > > > > diffence between JSF being a spec and struts a framework start > being > > > > > more visible. > > > > > > > > > > If I was asking how to get started with jsf and shale I'd find > your VB > > > > > vs C++ statement confusing and not very helpful at all. > > > > > > > > > > Mark > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 1/6/06, Rick Mann < [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for the response, Craig. It's nice to get an answer > from > > THE > > > > > > > authority :-). Questions below... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Jan 6, 2006, at 5:16 PM, Craig McClanahan wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'd definitely ignore anything about prereleases of JSF 1.0... > > > > > > > > that has > > > > > > > > been out for nearly two years now. A good starting place > for > > > > > > > > general JSF > > > > > > > > knowledge and information is < http://jsfcentral.com>. Kito > > does a > > > > > > > > good job > > > > > > > > of staying on top of the most recent articles and items of > > > > > > > > interest. This, > > > > > > > > by the way, is *exactly* the place to start before looking > much > > at > > > > > > > > Shale > > > > > > > > itself -- Shale *srongly* presumes that you are familiar > with > > JSF, > > > > > > > > and what > > > > > > > > it brings to the table all by itself, because it focuses on > > adding > > > > > > > > value > > > > > > > > around the edges. Without understanding those edges a > little, > > it's > > > > > > > > harder > > > > > > > > to appreciate the benefits :-). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Okay, I'll try to find a "hello world" JSF example. That might > be > > > > > > > enough for me to build on. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A question comes up: what has happened to Tiles? Is it no > longer a > > > > > > > part of Struts? I'm still terribly unfamiliar with the new > Struts > > > > > > > website. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Do I bother creating a nice Tiles hierarchy of layouts and > tiles? > > Or > > > > > > > is there some other way to get site L&F re-use? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Beyond the Shale web site[1], there's not a heck of a lot of > > stuff > > > > > > > > yet. One > > > > > > > > high level overview is the session I did at ApacheCon > (reprised > > > > > > > > from one > > > > > > > > that David Geary and I did at JavaOne)[2] ... but the slides > > lose a > > > > > > > > little > > > > > > > > in the translation without the corresponding demo program, > which > > is > > > > > > > > not in a > > > > > > > > shape that I'm quite ready to check in yet :-). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Okay, I'll hold off worrying about Shale for now. Sounds like > I > > can > > > > > > > work it in easily enough when the time comes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Here's my big question: do I still think in terms of Struts > > Actions > > > > > > > handling the business logic of my application (which they > rarely > > do; > > > > > > > they usually glue to the "real" biz code)? Or do I look to > putting > > > > > > > all that glue within JSF controllers? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > Rick > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > "You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on > its > > > > back." > > > > > > ~Dakota Jack~ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > "You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its > > back." > > > > ~Dakota Jack~ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > "You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its > back." > > ~Dakota Jack~ > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > -- "You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back." ~Dakota Jack~
