Bart Busschots wrote:
To answer your question, not in any detail no. I just knew struts was
incorporatng another project.
Okay, thank you for sharing that.
I didn't care about the details then and I
still don't now.
That's odd. For a guy who is this apathetic about the whole thing, you
seemed kind of passionate just now.
Jonathan Revusky
--
lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
Jonathan Revusky wrote:
Bart Busschots wrote:
OK, I'm keeping this short:
1) No one put a gun to the WebWorks guys and made them become part of
struts, they chose that
True, though I never claimed that a gun was put to anybody's head.
2) The struts team now contains the WebWorks guys right? So there is
no division, they are the one team.
This is true. However, they have not really worked as a team before.
We do not know what the result will be.
3) The reason I choose struts is because struts does things the
Apache way. I have great faith in the Apache way and that is not
un-founded faith, just look at the Apache Web server!
It is my considered view that your faith in the "Apache Way" is
misguided. Especially if it is based on the In particular, the Apache
web server, written in C, has nothing to do with something like Struts.
4) Being at the bleeding edge is not always a good thing. Stuts does
what it does well. I am very happy with the 1.X framework, it has
worked well for me and massively simplified a complex task. There may
be something more cutting edge out there but that does not make it
better to use. Support and availability of experts are often more
important factors and Struts has more to offer in that field than
WebWorks did.
If you are happy and think you made the right decision, that is
wonderful and I will not argue with you.
5) The merger/takeover is great for both Struts and WebWorks. Struts
gets the advangages of WebWorks code and WebWorks gets the advantage
of all the non-code stuff that Struts have obviously gotten right.
They have a great brand that is recognised!
Yes, this reflects the official reasoning behind it.
6) I don't care about the personalities involved. As long as Struts
works all is well. I will judge the new merged Struts team by the
code they produce from here forward, not what half the team did or
did not do in the past. Time will tell, just let them get on with the
task at hand and let us all get on with our tasks ... building Web Apps!
That is not unreasonable either. Peace and good will to all men.
One question, Bart. You didn't answer me before on this. Before today,
did you understand what was going on with this Struts/Webwork stuff? I
am curious about this.
Jonathan Revusky
--
lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
Bart.
Jonathan Revusky wrote:
Bart Busschots wrote:
Right, as I see it this all boils down to Jon whinning that the
struts guys are adopting WebWorks for the basis of struts 2 rather
than Struts 1.X.
I'm not precisely whining about that.
Anyway, I have one question that intrigues me. Did you understand
what was going on with this before today?
I mean, this has been in the works for over 3 months, I think.
So the problem seems to be that two groups trying to achieve the
same thing have come together and merged. Hang on a sec .... that's
NOT a problem. The struts guys saw that webworks was good and
adopted it. GREAT, BRILLIANT! They are DOING WHAT IS BEST FOR THE
USERS, i.e. US!
Well, Bart, Webwork has been there for years, available for guys
like you to use. The Struts guys didn't do the work to make that
technology come about. That was done by the Webwork guys of course.
They're not making anything available to you that wasn't already
available. So, all this stuff about BRILLIANT, shouting this in all
caps, seems a tad over the top to me...
The only thing that's going on is that Struts 1.x fell way behind
being the state of the art. Due to its visibility/projection
non-technical assets, it was able to attract new users, like you --
as recently as 9 months ago, despite being technically obsolete.
Now you've made an investment, building applications on top of
Struts 1.x and it's brilliant that they move to the Webwork codebase
(relabelling that as Struts Action 2.)
BUT.... you could have simply avoided all the bother -- if you knew
what was going on -- by using Webwork in the first place!
Just because you switch to a new track does NOT mean you have
stagnated! It means you are moving foward in a positive manner. How
on earth can that be a bad thing and how on earth can such obvious
progress forward be stagnation!
Well, there are various issues here. You have the fact that the
innovative work was done elsewhere, yet the community that, somehow,
despite its built-in advantages, was not able to innovate, swallows
the community that did the innovative work, and imposes their
culture and project management practices on them. This is, in
general, a kind of problem IMO.
This discussion originated in the context of discussing open source
project management. Various Struts/ASF bigwigs were being -- at
least AFAICS -- quite arrogant about the so-called "Apache Way"
being the last word in how everything has to be done.
This ultimately got me questioning openly how on earth they can say
this. In this Struts/Webwork merger, you have a tacit acceptance of
the fact that the developer community that was presumably doing
things according to the "Apache Way" (I mean Struts here) did not
innovate, and ended up having to bring in a codebase not developed
at ASF (Webwork) in order to have something reasonably up-to-date to
offer.
Yet you will still hear this people saying: "The Apache Way" is X
and pointing you to pages about this like they were scripture.
So, my pressing them about the Struts 1.x codebase and that it
stagnated occurred in that context.
You really have to understand the context in which conversations
developed.
By Jon's "logic" Windows development stagnated when the Windows ME
code-base was abandoned and MS have serious questions to answer as
to why they moved on to a better technology (WinNT Code Base). Not
to Mention Apple really stagnated when they moved from OS 9 to the
NeXT based OS X.
Well, in both cases, there was a clear migration path offered to
users and I think there was far more clarity about what was going on.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but before I brought this up, you didn't
really understand what was going on with this. So, at the very
least, the communication with users has been terrible.
In any case, I am not "whining" that the superior technology
(Webwork in this case) is going to replace the inferior technology
(Struts 1.x).
That's not exactly my point. In terms of the overall open source
ecology, I have some real misgivings about a team that failed to
innovate imposing its culture and project management practices on
the community that really was able to innovate and be at the cutting
edge. This is problematic.
Again, you have to understand the context of the discussion.
Besides, since I started using struts about 9 months ago Struts
have moved on at least 5 minor versions, that's hardly stagnent now
is it!
Well, consider this. Step back and look at it: you could simply have
been using Struts 2.x for the last 9 months by using Webwork instead.
So I think there's reason to look askance at what a great favor
these Struts guys have done for you. You've been using technology
for the last 9 months that the Struts developers themselves consider
to be inferior.
Stuts is moving FORWARD, the struts code base has been STRENGTHENED
by the inclusion of WebWorks,
It's not an inclusion, Bart. The Webwork codebase is simply
replacing the Struts 1.x codebase that you have been building your
stuff on top of.
where on earth is this mythical stagnation? The only thing here
that seems stagnent to me are John's posts. They are just the same
thing over and over and over and over and over ......... again. We
get it Jon, we know what you think, it's just that not everyone
agrees with you and no matter how many times you say the same thing
everyone will NEVER agree with you!
This topic is dead, it has been for weeks, can we now please do the
honourable thing and bury it!
The topic has been avoided basically. In any case, if you still
think this topic is not worth talking about and other think it, why
do you care if they talk about it?
Jonathan Revusky
--
lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
Bart.
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