Well said. On 4/1/06, Jonathan Revusky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Alexandre Poitras wrote: > > Stability : Relatively unchanging, permanent; firmly fixed or > established, > > > > Of course, it usually only refers to the framework API. It doesn't > > have anything to do with improvements or not, changing is changing for > > the best or the worst. > > > > "There is nothing incompatible between being -->stable<-- and being > > innovative and > > -->changing<--" is totally contradictory according to your favorite > dictionary. > > Well, actually, there are concepts of *dynamic* stability -- for > example, the notion of an aircraft being aerodynamically stable. I'm not > an expert in that field so I am reluctant to take this analogy too far, > but obviously, the aircraft is moving, it is not stationary. The > stability in question is more or less that it doesn't go into an abrupt > nosedive and crash. But it is moving. And it's stable, at least in a > certain sense, at the same time. > > In any case, in the context of this discussion, "stability" really only > makes sense within a framework of overall technical progress. If > development basically comes to a standstill, and there's no technical > progress, then you have stability in the most trivial sense, that > nothing happens. > > This same stability could have been achieved by the javasoft team simply > by not improving the Java platform past the 1.1.3 level, say. To achieve > stability by simply not doing anything is hardly much of an achievement > to crow about. > > In any case, there is a concept of dynamic stability. You seem to be > confusing the concept of something being stable with it being > stationary. In so doing, you have entered into a rather sterile semantic > game IMO. > > Jonathan Revusky > -- > lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/ > > > > > > > > > On 3/30/06, Dakota Jack <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > >>Again, Alexandre, how are these contradictory? Oh, LOL, I see what you > are > >>thinking, if I can guess. You think that code improvement and migration > are > >>unstable. Unstable is when you cannot count on a product for the long > run. > >>This means stability embraces change and improvement, keeping up with > the > >>Jones. Look at the big picture. > >> > >>Stability is important. That does not mean you don't improve. There is > >>nothing incompatible between being stable and being innovative and > >>changing. In fact, if a code base does not keep up, it is unstable. A > code > >>base is not stable if you cannot count on it for the future. > >> > >>On 3/30/06, Alexandre Poitras <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> > >>>Yesterday : > >>>"The stability of a platform like Struts is a big deal" > >>>Today : > >>>"Backward compatibility is never a reason to trash a product. You go > >>>through a process of deprecation." > >>> > >>>On 3/30/06, Dakota Jack <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >>> > >>>>I have no idea, Alexandre, why you think this is a > contradiction. Could > >>> > >>>you > >>> > >>>>please point that out? > >>>> > >>>>On 3/30/06, Alexandre Poitras <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >>>> > >>>>>You lack memory Dakota, here's what you just wrote yesterday : > >>>>> > >>>>>"The hullabaloo, Larry, is about the stability of the platform with a > >>>>>bunch > >>>>>of committers who don't appear to be up to the job and who are not > >>> > >>>willing > >>> > >>>>>to look at what went wrong. The stability of a platform like Struts > >>> > >>>is a > >>> > >>>>>big deal. This is a time to decide to go with or to get off the > >>> > >>>Struts > >>> > >>>>>wagon. How the committers respond has a lot to do with this." > >>>>> > >>>>>You just contradicted yourself... But you are so superior to us mere > >>>>>mortals that I am probably wrong again. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>>>On 3/30/06, Dakota Jack <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: You > >>>>>>>toadies to the process are the ones that always start this > >>> > >>>crap. The > >>> > >>>>>truth > >>>>> > >>>>>>>is that you don't know shit. If you did, you would be all over > >>> > >>>this > >>> > >>>>>>>question. Backward compatibility is never a reason to trash a > >>>>> > >>>>>product. You > >>>>> > >>>>>>>go through a process of deprecation. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>On 3/30/06, Alexandre Poitras <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>Don't bother about him Bart. I said it and I will say it again, > >>> > >>>he > >>> > >>>>>is > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>a troll. I tried to have a constructive discussion with him > >>> > >>>several > >>> > >>>>>>>>times. It always ends up in personal attacks (go read some books > >>> > >>>and > >>> > >>>>>>>>come back...) but he is the one never backing up his claims. I > >>> > >>>am > >>> > >>>>>all > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>for freedom of speech and CONSRUCTIVE CRITICISM but I think > >>> > >>>people > >>> > >>>>>>>>have been REALLY tolerant with him. I can't count how many times > >>> > >>>he > >>> > >>>>>>>>bashed Craig freely or any other commiters. It sounds like > >>> > >>>jalousy > >>> > >>>>>to > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>me. Dakota, this list is owned by Apache and you are a guess > >>> > >>>here. > >>> > >>>>>It > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>is not an absolute right. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>Honestly, I begin to think Shale should move to another place > >>>>> > >>>>>because > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>the amount of noise on this list is terrible. I don't write a > >>> > >>>lot on > >>> > >>>>>>>>this list but I do read it a lot and this noise is getting > >>> > >>>really > >>> > >>>>>out > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>of control. Thank to 2 guys who have decided Apache doesn't fit > >>>>> > >>>>>their > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>point of view and therefore anybody who don't think the same > >>>>> > >>>>>way are > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>wrong . Here's a clue : you can take the code, evolve it and > >>> > >>>start > >>> > >>>>>>>>your own community then quite BUGGING US with your childish > >>> > >>>fights > >>> > >>>>>>>>since you will be so successful. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>By the way, for those who may believe those guys, Struts 1.xdidn't > >>>>>>>>not evolve as fast as WebWork for one reason : API Backward > >>>>>>>>compatibilit, something very important to frameworks. This is > >>> > >>>one of > >>> > >>>>>>>>the reason this community is so huge. Is it that hard to > >>> > >>>understand > >>> > >>>>>? > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>For instance, it has been well known since a long time that > >>> > >>>sending > >>> > >>>>>an > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>HttpServletRequest's instance to actions was a bad idea and a > >>>>> > >>>>>neutral > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>context object should have been used instead but it hasn't been > >>>>>>>>changed to keep the API consistant. Hence the need for a version > >>> > >>>2.0 > >>> > >>>>>. > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>WebWork technically already gots it right but always lacked > >>> > >>>(from > >>> > >>>>>what > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>I heard) a big user community, something Struts has always > >>> > >>>enjoyed > >>> > >>>>>>>>because of its commitment to backward compatibility. So both > >>>>>>>>frameworks win in this merge especially given the strong > >>> > >>>competition > >>> > >>>>>>>>coming from components-oriented frameworks. Technical excellence > >>> > >>>is > >>> > >>>>>>>>not the only success factor. Only idealists think this way. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>On 3/30/06, Bart Busschots <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>Dakota Jack wrote: > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>Dion, you are obviously really green. Please read a bit and > >>> > >>>then > >>> > >>>>>come > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>back. Do you have any idea about architecture and design and > >>>>> > >>>>>testing > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>issues? > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>This is an example of the kind of post this list could do > >>> > >>>without. > >>> > >>>>>The > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>>above post basically boils down to: > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>"you disagree with me so you must be uneducated, go read up > >>> > >>>some > >>> > >>>>>and > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>>then come talk with the big boys" > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>I'm sorry but that is just insulting and most un-helpful. > >>> > >>>Jack, > >>> > >>>>>please > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>>explain your point of view so us mere > >>>>>>>>>mortals can actually learn something rather than being all > >>> > >>>smug > >>> > >>>>>and > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>>superior on people who dissagree with > >>>>>>>>>you. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>Thanks, > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>Bart. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>--------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>>To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>>>>>>>>For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>-- > >>>>>>>>Alexandre Poitras > >>>>>>>>Québec, Canada > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>--------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>>>>>>>For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>-- > >>>>>>>"You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its > >>>>> > >>>>>back." > >>>>> > >>>>>>>~Dakota Jack~ > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>-- > >>>>>>Alexandre Poitras > >>>>>>Québec, Canada > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>-- > >>>>>Alexandre Poitras > >>>>>Québec, Canada > >>>>> > >>>>>--------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>>>To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>>>>For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>-- > >>>>"You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its > >>> > >>>back." > >>> > >>>>~Dakota Jack~ > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >>>-- > >>>Alexandre Poitras > >>>Québec, Canada > >>> > >>>--------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>>For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > >>-- > >>"You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its > back." > >>~Dakota Jack~ > >> > >> > > > > > > > > -- > > Alexandre Poitras > > Québec, Canada > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >
-- "You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back." ~Dakota Jack~
