Wow Krishgy, good questions! Well, first of all, my profile: I have 12 years of working experience as an independent consultant, developer and J2EE trainer. I began with Delphi, but soon I shifted to Java. At first the only marketplace was the one of desktop applications, then came the web application. Now I work on both sides. As an independent consultant and trainer my opinion may be biased in favour of using frameworks. But I do also development works and again I consider frameworks as blessings either from this side.
However I must say that the majority of developers I met in these years are strongly reluctant to using frameworks. Not only those from service based companies, but also those from product based companies - I consider this an italian anomaly (where is your company from?). In my horizon it's almost a rule that product company based developers, in order to speed up the development process and to maintain better the product have developed their own home-made framework. Well, I don't have anything against those who want to do their own frameworks, I myself did the same many years ago. But making a framework is not a joke, it means to dedicate a large amount of your resouces to it and therefore become a framework vendor (or vendor of framework knowledge, in case of open-source). The answer you are getting from your developers are typical of people who have learned some framework (e.g. Struts) and stopped there. If someone is accustomed to learn and use new frameworks (as a mature developer should do) he or she will tell you that nowadays Spring framework is a must, that Spring and Hibernate works greatly together, as well as Spring and other persistence frameworks (e.g. iBATIS), that there are many interesting things like GWT, Wicket, Seam, Grails, Ruby on Rails, Echo and others. Matt is right, start to ask your developers about the pros and cons of these frameworks, about the difference between GWT and Wicket or between an ORM like Hibernate and a Mapper like iBATIS. I could even agree that for small projects Appfuse is too much; I personally reached the maximum boost in development using GWT for presentation and iBATIS for persistence, but anyway you must be able to handle different frameworks without fear. Mixing frameworks is not an easy task, the more you put together, the more things gets complicated. Therefore if someone, or something, like Appfuse do it for you, then why throw it away? Sure, you must know what is Spring and Hibernate or iBATIS, and Struts2 (ex Webwork) or JSF or something else, but you must know a lot about them anyway if you want to keep developing in the future, either if you adopt Appfuse or not. Another thing: customers are becoming more and more exigents and skilled; sooner or later they will want you to explain your architecture development, they will ask you "why you didn't adopted Spring?", "how did you handle security? Acegi?", "Is your business layer Web Service ready?", "Did you use AOP?". If you adopt Appfuse you can be at easy with these questions. And sometime, as you say, the customer ask for a particular framework or a mix of frameworks. Yes, you can (you must) make him or her aware of the pro and cons and maybe propose some other combination, but how can you do that if you fear the ones you don't know. Regards Vincenzo Caselli gmail: vincenzo.caselli On Mon, Aug 11, 2008 at 4:31 PM, krishgy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Hi All, > > We are doing our first web application :-) in our company. > > I have 6 years of working experience in VC++, .NET and Python. > > I have chosen the Appfuse framework & maven and created initial application > to help our junior developers. > I don't work on Java projects on full time. > > Our developers are very fresh engineers and who couldn't hope up with the > project due to lack of experience or learning curve. > > My choices (Maven, AppFuse, Struts, Hibernate and Spring) have been > criticized (kind of) by Java architects (3 people) who have more than 8-12 > years of working experiences. > > They never explained me whats wrong with these frameworks. All of them told > that all the frameworks won't suit together. All of them told that > hibernate > is for large & complex projects but not suitable for small projects like > us. > For me, hibernate is kind of life saver, saves our time from fighting SQL. > I > have worked with ORM (from Python, Sqlalchemy) which is great and I have > used for small and big projects. > > Then we met another java architect who suggests that these frameworks are > good and time saver. > > First I don't understand how experienced Java people differs their opinion > on known, proven frameworks. > > Then I started realizing their background. People who hates Maven, > AppFuse, > Struts, Hibernate and Spring are from service companies and the guy who > love > these frameworks is from product based company. > > > Here are my open question for people in this community who works for > service > and products. > > 1. Is learning these frameworks take too much of time? > > 2. Are these frameworks are self killer weapon? I don't know how to explain > that. (We have a myth that there is special weapon which either kills enemy > or ourself). These frameworks will kill the product? > > 3. Experienced people (architect) are telling that they can create > performance centric application in Struts without using Spring and > Hibernate. But for me Spring and Hibernate and the way appfuse integrate > them seems like a time saver or more than life saver. > > 4. Are there any difference between the people who works for products or > who > works for services? > > One different I can feel that service based companies create shit product > at > the end of the delivery because customer what the same by given the > deadline. So people in service may hesitant to take risk to use or learn > these framework themselves (until and unless the customer explicitly > mention > to use a specific framework). > > Product based companies need to maintain their code for years, so they try > to make code smart and clean(less code). > > How people here are feeling so? > > I am sorry, If my post is irrelevant to this forum. I am not trolling here. > > When architects mentioned about Appfuse which itself a problem, I really > don't understand why. I try to understand what is behind that? > > Regards, > > Krish > > > > > > > > -- > View this message in context: > http://www.nabble.com/Appfuse-%28Basic-Struts-%2B-Spring-%2B-Hibernate%29-tp18926990s2369p18926990.html > Sent from the AppFuse - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >
