I hear what you are saying, but what I was trying to say was that for a new user wishing to learn cocoon I would advise them to get to grips with jxt/flow/sitemaps first and once they have mastered that then to investigate xsp should they require it use.
regards
Andrew
On 11 Nov 2004, at 10:08, Derek Hohls wrote:
Well, strictly speaking there is no absolute need for XSP;
you can either use JXTemplate and/or FlowScript plus the
various transformers and generators with which Cocoon is
so well-endowed (!) or, if those do not handle it, then write
some Plain Ol' Java.
However, bear in mind that XSP allows, through the use of
logic sheets, a simple way of "XML Scripting with Tags" (if
this description helps?) that helps Java "dummies" like me
to avoid writing code for more complex cases (e.g. multiple
nested and highly conditional sets of SQL). At the end , this
"XML Script" *is* converted to Java and compiled - so if you
are a Java guru you can, obviously, write and maintain the
necessary code in Java yourself.
In summary - avoid using XSP as far as possible, and keep it
for those cases where is no other obvious way and you want to
avoid writing Java.
My 2c
Does that help?
Chaps,[EMAIL PROTECTED] 2004/11/11 11:32:44 AM >>>
I have asked this question before, and i'm going to again, if we have
flow/jxt why xsp? If I was a new user what I would wanted see is fir
direction as to which architecture to use within cocoon and why. When I
first started using cocoon i used xsp as that was what I saw in all the
documentation, until I discovered flow/jxt, and then thought well why I
have I been doing that to myself!
To bring this technology into 70% struts commercial market, issues like
MVC and the like need to be brought to the for, and I can't see where
xsp stands in all this.
my 2 rupees
On 11 Nov 2004, at 06:17, Derek Hohls wrote:
BrentCocoon
Sure. Even good documentation will never substitute for being
able to ask a "guru" and, as I said originally, the Cocoon community
is one of its key strengths. Its just that to get people over the
initial learning hurdle takes guidance; and most of us are prepared
to "self learn" with a reasonable level of written material.
I agree that part of the revised docs could/should be a FAQ; not
too hard to do if you are prepared to wade through past archives!
One of the subjects I would like to see addressed, and it does come
up quite often, is a comprehensive guide to "Variables in the
Environment". There are a multitude of places where variable datais
can be stored and manipulated (XSP, XSLT, Flow, Sitemap, Java etc.)
and passing data around an application can be just as hairy. This
a topic which cuts across a number of others and, for that reason,Cocoon
would give quite a good perspective on the "inner workings" of
as well as being helpful on where and how to deal with data.on
My 2 too.
Maybe there is one and Ive just never found it. But a Cocoon forum[EMAIL PROTECTED] 2004/11/10 04:52:43 PM >>>
would be pretty helpful. Sure this list is great.. and most people
it are very helpful. It'd be nice to have an archive of helpfula
answers, stickyable topics, forum categories, etc. I realize
marc.theaimsgroup.com mailing list searches are fairly helpful.. but
forum would be much nicer.expert
Sure there could stand to be more documentation.. but I found when I
was learning how to use Hibernate I frequently searched their forums
for more obscure questions/answers than reviewing the documentation.
Just my 2 cents.
- Brent
On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 09:45:16 +0200, Derek Hohls <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
Ralph
Yup. I am not envious of any other open source package
ito community support and the intrinsic capability of the system
but I if had the odd, spare $10k or even $100k lying around
the first thing I would do is offer to hire some people (tech
guide+ writer/editor) to redo all the documents; including the main
website and wiki. Plus produce a high quality "getting going"
can(such as the one that projects like Hibernate has.)
I can dream, right?
Derek
PS Yes, in theory, the above could be done by the community,
but in practice some old-fashioned, top-down, focussed effort is
actually what it takes to get something like this together.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 2004/11/10 08:54:17 AM >>>
Derek Hohls wrote:
I guess my 2c is that I do think Cocoon remains obscure. There
seem to be lots of people doing lots of good things with it, but
its never promoted [read - not discussed, written about, in forums
outside of Cocoon groups, where others could sit up and take
notice]. It is a chicken-and-egg situation... but these things
Cocoonorganizationbe changed.My $.02.
My experience with everyone who is now using Cocoon in our
has gone something like this:
1. I already know Struts (and JSPs)...
2. It's too complicated.
3. The documentation is bad. The published books are old and don't
cover
the current release.
4. Wow. It does that?!
5. This is really ccol!
Obviously, getting past 1, 2 and 3 are the hard part, with 1 and 2
being
the worst. The irony is that the solution, IMO, is number 3.
---------------------------------------------------------------------needs better documentation, more published articles, and better
documentation.
Ralph
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