Hello Oleg, hi list,

I tried some of their plug ins and they are quite useful and
interesting. Maybe there are quite a few other plug ins out there
which support you whilst you work with cocoon. Furthermore there are
over a dozen or so plug ins floating around that support you dealing
with XML and XSLT.

However, IMHO it's not the point that there are several other tools out there.

The point is, that none of these tools really fits in the real need
nor is it tightly bound to cocoon. The plug ins from s&n or anyware
are both bound to the respective firm and their strategy and not the
cocoon community. Which is fine in a commercial sense, but I think we
should focus on a potential cocoon first timer. These firms (or some
of their employees) are respected and valuable members of the
community. And I really appreciate what they've done to become cocoon
what it is. And I also understand (or at least I think I'll do :)
their motivation to offer such tools. However, frankly, what cocoon
and it's community needs more than that is a set of tools which
enables our first timer to get his feet wet. I think such tools should
not be bound on a commercial business case in the first place. They
should be bound to the community and its product, needs and
expectations.

Just think for yourself. As an IT manager do you consider to look
closer at a framework, that is OSS and pretty cool, but to get you
started you have to fire up notepad? Doesn't sound quite cool to me.
If you leave out notepad, and look around, you'll find some other
tools which are of unknown quality, availability and support. If you
choose one of them and you have bad luck, you happen to end up with
Notepad again in a very short time.

For example have a look at tomcat. The manager and admin applications
added quite a value to the "product". Everybody using tomcat before
version 3.x knows what I'm talking about. In this respect, cocoon also
needs some best of breed / practice (sorry the marketing lingo), that
supports the first steps. I think a good plug-in in eclipse could do
the job. For instance, I'd prefer a basic set of tools that enable me
to develop an little application, to deploy and manage it. If I need
at a later time further support or better tools, I'm willing to pay
for it (and I hope other's are too). If so, there is also a market for
more advanced tools. Or to put it short: I don't need  five different
tools to do some basic tasks, but none of them really satisfying. I
just need a good one. But this tool has to be supported by the
community and bound to the community product.

Although, if you have any experiences with the plug ins from anyware,
please share them with us.

Markus


On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 11:01:45 -0800 (PST), Oleg Konovalov
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Guys,
> 
> Why are you so concentrated on sunBow ?
> 
> Has anybody tried Cocoon plug-ins from AnywhereTech ?
> Are they more mature than SunBow ?
> See:
> http://www.anyware-tech.com/en/developper/EclipsePlugins/EclipsePlugins.html
> 
> Any better ones ?
> 
> Thank you,
> Oleg.
> 
> 
> --- Elad Messing <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > Also I am a new guy here - I wanted to add my vote as well -
> > as someone who
> > is looking for this kind of solution. I think every mature
> > project should
> > have an integrated solution such as sunBow.
> >
> > -----Urspr�ngliche Nachricht-----
> > Von: Lars Huttar [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Gesendet: Dienstag, 22. Februar 2005 20:22
> > An: [email protected]
> > Betreff: Re: Debug cocoon applications
> >
> > Matthew Langham wrote:
> >
> > >Hi Markus,
> > >
> > >Thanks for your comments, they are really appreciated.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >>build of eclipse and an cocoon version not available as
> > source package
> > >>on cocoon's download page. This fact leads to the question
> > if further
> > >>development is put on hold...
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > >As you have guessed S&N is not a tools company and sunBow was
> >
> > >originally developed as part of a student project. We
> > currently have
> > >not committed any resources to further development.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >>ever thought about opening the source? Has Anyware
> > Technologies,
> > >>offering another tool set, ever had such thoughts? Or are
> > both planing
> > >>to offer a commercial product?
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > >We, for one, have no plans to release a commercial product.
> > >
> > >There have been discussions in the past about Open Sourcing
> > sunBow or
> > >starting a Cocoon tool subproject or... But for various
> > reasons these
> > >discussions have just faded and never lead to anything.
> > >
> > >I will however take your email as a wake-up call and see what
> > mountains
> > >I can move :-).
> > >
> > >Stay tuned.
> > >
> > >Freundliche Gr��e / With kind regards
> > >
> > >Matthew Langham
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > Well let me add my voice to the requests to open-source Sunbow
> > or start a
> > Cocoon tool subproject! Sitemap tracing (showing XML output at
> > each
> > stage) would be a great boon to debugging Cocoon apps and even
> > learning
> > Cocoon in the first place.
> >
> > The version limitations mentioned previously do put a serious
> > dent in the
> > usefulness of sunBow.
> >
> > Lars
> >
> >
> >
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