Robert, 

This is open source, debate and disagreement is part of the deal - 
I think you have done a ton of good things, that everything you do isn't 
praised and
sometimes is "shot down", that is just part of the fun.

I certainly hope that you don't see one comment (that I thought was 
constructive) as 
a signal to community disagreement.

just my 0.2.

/je

On Nov 11, 2010, at 9:20 AM, Robert Liguori wrote:

> Glen, Benson, and Apache CXF team,
> 
> Here are my responses to Glen's comments/observations related to my 
> contributions.
> 
> Glen's comment: "But, also, as for the issue of time you mention, this brings 
> up an earlier
> concern I had about the expansive "thank you" page you recently made
> (http://cxf.apache.org/special-thanks.html), in which you list and explain
> every Apache and other project that CXF imports, as well as (IMO)
> erroneously list Apache-wide helpers like Atlassian that should be thanked
> at an Apache-level and not individually within every project.  "
> Robert Response:  I returned the "thank you" page to the version it was at 
> before I touched it.  I also returned the "Architecture Guide" page to the 
> original version, as I had left it in a flux state and do not plan or have 
> the experience to finish it in the proper manner.
> 
> Glen's comment: "One should also analyze the opportunity cost of making the 
> command line
> options looking the same as the GNU conventions compared to adding
> additional functionality to CXF,..."
> Robert's Response: The definitions of the command line options are different 
> in at least three different places.  Some of the inline usage definitions 
> don't even match what the tool actually does.  For the most extreme example, 
> the usage for "idl2wsdl", starts out with "idltowsdl"; just do a "idl2wsdl 
> -help" to see for yourself.  "Cleanup" was my intent of the issue raised, 
> meeting conventions in the process is considered a "best practice" and would 
> be nice to the end-user community if achieved.
> 
> Glen's comment:  "... a similar issue to your earlier desire to have the CXF 
> website be reformatted to look like Camel, ServiceMix, and ActiveMQ's."
> Robert's Response:  It was my general feeling that ASF projects should be 
> branded in a similar fashion.   However, it's been made to clear to me by 
> several people at ASF that  forcing branding does not work well with 
> open-source.
> 
> Glen's comment:  "So as you enhance the CXF documentation, please be sure 
> that you're not
> giving CXF "puppies as presents", things that look cute but are of
> relatively limited benefit and need a lot of maintenance afterwards to
> remain cute.  "
> Robert's Response: I'm definitely not on the same page as the CXF team.   It 
> was a nice stay.  If any of my other updates seem that they do more harm than 
> good, please revert the web pages back to old instances.  I'm not going to 
> fall anything else back, as I feel that has been value in my improvements to 
> the web-pages content.
> 
> To wrap things up on my side, I'll look at the issues I have opened and will 
> try to align them with the general open-source philosophy.
> 
> Take care,
> Robert
> 
> -----Original Message----- From: Glen Mazza
> Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2010 10:30 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Apache CXF tooling usage definitions
> 
> 
> 
> Robert Liguori wrote:
>> 
>> Note that I personally don't have time to contribute to this, but I do
>> think
>> that refined, synchronized and more accurate usage definitions would bring
>> enhanced 'polished' value to the product.
>> 
> 
> Several of your suggestions Robert would seem better suited for the CXF-Dev
> rather than the CXF-User's list.  For any project, not just CXF, many ideas
> look excellent at first glance but for various reasons are known not to be
> such a great idea by developers and close observers who have spent years
> with the project.  However unfair given all your work on the documentation,
> heavy usage of CXF-Users over CXF-Dev can give the impression that you
> realize that a lot of your ideas hold less and less water the more
> experienced one is with the project and that you are using the User
> community to unduly push sweet-looking-on-the-surface changes that perhaps
> should not be made.
> 
> One should also analyze the opportunity cost of making the command line
> options looking the same as the GNU conventions compared to adding
> additional functionality to CXF, a similar issue to your earlier desire to
> have the CXF website be reformatted to look like Camel, ServiceMix, and
> ActiveMQ's.  Another factor is that volunteer developers need to work on
> tasks that further themselves first and busywork (or "polishing") rarely
> accomplishes that.  For open source to be successful, a volunteer developer
> should always be *stronger* as a result of volunteering on an open source
> project, not weaker.
> 
> But, also, as for the issue of time you mention, this brings up an earlier
> concern I had about the expansive "thank you" page you recently made
> (http://cxf.apache.org/special-thanks.html), in which you list and explain
> every Apache and other project that CXF imports, as well as (IMO)
> erroneously list Apache-wide helpers like Atlassian that should be thanked
> at an Apache-level and not individually within every project.  No question,
> it looks very nice and professional now, but who's going to be maintaining
> this?  It's like you're giving us a new puppy as a present.  This page is
> not going to be looking very nice in several months once it falls out of
> date, links get old, etc.  It's not necessary for an Apache project to have
> to individually thank every other Apache project it incorporates.  The
> source of record for determining the dependencies used by CXF is always
> going to be its POM files or the lib folder of its distribution, not a
> website page.
> 
> So as you enhance the CXF documentation, please be sure that you're not
> giving CXF "puppies as presents", things that look cute but are of
> relatively limited benefit and need a lot of maintenance afterwards to
> remain cute.
> 
> Thanks,
> Glen
> 
> -- 
> View this message in context: 
> http://cxf.547215.n5.nabble.com/Apache-CXF-tooling-usage-definitions-tp3253466p3260484.html
> Sent from the cxf-user mailing list archive at Nabble.com. 

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