Thanks, I appreciate that. I understand and have been known to take UFS drives 
offline or at least go single user in order to backup in the past.

I guess what I am truly looking for is a use for PFS. They feel like a 
technology right on the cusp of something I could use to make a big improvement 
to my workflow, but I cannot figure out how!

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‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐
On August 8, 2018 11:08 AM, patric conant <[email protected]> wrote:

> Bryan,
>
> Without snapshots filesystem operations are not atomic, when you Backup, 
> copy, sync, rsync, you are not getting a cohesive operation, but the various 
> states of individual files at the time they are accessed. So, no, you can't 
> back up UFS, with any sort of guaranteed consistency, yes each file can be 
> consistent, but for example, the logs for services, and the file states of 
> those services are out of sync, now when you restore you have logs that are 
> not for point of time that the files are for. Snapshotting is pretty much the 
> cornerstone of modern storage.  Next checksumming, which I'm not aware of UFS 
> support in. Without checksumming the only source of validity of a file is the 
> file itself. There's no guarantee or even expectation of file consistency, in 
> traditional file systems, just that we trust the hardware because we have to. 
> RAID mitigates this, to the tune of reducing it 50-90%, but an 8TB live data 
> set simply is not exactly what was laid down on the storage medium, and 
> there's no expectation of such. That's some of the nitty gritty of the modern 
> storage layer, but as we all know and experience, systems run for years 
> without these problems enjoying any sort of remedy outside of best effort, 
> there's probably machines with massive data-sets, and decades of history, 
> whom have been subject to these problems, being restored from file-level 
> backups many times, and having the total of the writes be in the multiple 
> petabytes range, and the applications running on top seeming no worse for 
> wear. This speaks to the resiliency to some level of corruption of most 
> applications.
>
> On Tue, Aug 7, 2018 at 6:57 PM Bob Obrien <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Hello there,
>> I am enjoying Dragon Fly BSD so far, nice and snappy, seems sensibly 
>> organized.
>>
>> I like the idea of HAMMER but for my relatively basic uses I am not seeing a 
>> great benefits. Most notably, PFS seem to be a huge part of the design and 
>> what makes it tick. OK, cool, I guess you can snapshot via PFS. But wait, 
>> now you can snapshot ANY directory? mount_null also seems core to a basic DF 
>> setup but that is not limited to hammer at all. Backups, copies, syncs, yes 
>> it seems a neat organizational tool but at the same time I copy, rsync, etc 
>> etc with all my UFS drives and it works great. Assuming small enough files 
>> and drives that limitations are not being reached, of course.
>>
>> Maybe if I was a more advanced sysadmin type I would have more specific 
>> demands or use cases that would take advantage?
>>
>> Or maybe I simply need someone to explain how these benefit me and I will 
>> see the light, and improve my workflows. Thanks!
>>
>> Sent with [ProtonMail](https://protonmail.com) Secure Email.
>
> --
> Patric Conant
> Mirage Computing Lead Consultant
> @[MirageComputing](https://twitter.com/MirageComputing)on twitter
> https://m.facebook.com/MirageComputing/
> 316 409 2424

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