:) Funny enough I almost did the same but out of respect for your choice
to keep things private, I chose not to. You've not given the same
consideration so:
Heads up to this user - he has zero respect for the community, enjoys
wasting everyone time, and wants to use the list as a means to waste
everyone's time with a long novel (which I rightfully ignored). He
clearly just is using a user support thread for a free and open source
project powered by incredible volunteers as a means to complain and whine.
I stand by what I said - the product works for tens of millions of
users, I use it daily for professional work, and I have zero will to
read a multi-page rant from a verbose user that likes going WAY off
topic. He seems to have a lot more time to waste than I do.
Warmest Regards,
Joel
On 6/1/2016 1:01 PM, B.S. wrote:
Well then if you are going to respond like that, I am going to respond
in public.
Joel Madero schreef op 01-06-2016 18:13:
I use LibreOffice daily for professional work - your subjective feelings
are irrelevant in this outside of imposing a common sense "duty" (as a
member of the open source world) to report whatever issues you have in a
polite way and then wait patiently for the people with the skills that
you don't have to fix the problems that they confirm. Tens of millions
of users are using the product daily for professional quality work -
you're in the minority.
I wrote a message to Joel Madero in private because I didn't see it
fit to write anything more philosophical about the nature of open
source development on this list.
I did mention to him that people like him could be held liable in the
end for acts they have committed, or didn't commit, such as false
advertizing, which this product is doing, like so many others, even if
there is not a form of direct contractual agreement in monetary terms,
or anything like it, at the present date, the way this system is
constructed.
"No warranty" doesn't hold much water in a court of law if it actually
violates common principles.
And I hope you do realize, that all of you, developers or not, could
be held liable for the work you do, and false advertizing you are a
part of, if the false promises you make on websites such as that of
this product, come down to costing people a lot of time and money,
because you make promises you do not actually live up to.
And I stated these things because a form of reward is often implied in
using as well as creating open source products, and "no monetary gain"
is not a reality. People do this work and often get rewarded in other
forms, often as a form of investment or finding employment later down
the line. And I stated that everyone who is using open source material
is investing in the future, and the contract is often that something
may be free for now, but will yield rewards later down the line, or
will even require payment later down the line, because anyone who has
made a lot of money based on something free, will feel like paying
back on that.
So I feel this "no responsibility" claim is just nonsense to begin
with. That is not how life works, and it is not how people work.
If you put something out into the world, then accept responsibility
for it. And this is just common sense, but open source people often
try to reinvent common sense, and think they can do better than
anyone, because in some way they are distancing themselves from
corporate people, so they must be superior.
"No liability" or "no warranty" is going to not work out in the end,
and you are going to get hurt for it. And this is a promise as well,
because you are hurting yourself, and no one else.
Moreover, stating that in some way people (such as me) must be a good
'sheep' and are required to speak politely (as if speaking to
superiors) and then "patiently wait" (as if open source is not about
active involvement) until others who "do have the skills" see fit to
spend their valuable time on issues that they confirm at their sole
discretion, basically without anyone else having a say, but moreover,
without any requirement to even /listen/ to anyone else outside of
their scope, including, basically, all users, I can only currently
qualify as extremely arrogant, and downright oppressive. And I feel
this user only made these statements because it was done in private,
whereas I didn't write my message with privacy in mind.
If that is the picture you want to paint of yourself, fine, but then I
am not a part of that, or I am not a part of you.
Moreover, this arrogance mostly results also, of his incorrect
assumption that I am not a developer myself, and his condescending
tone only results at this point from thinking I have no code
development skills in the first place. "Wait until people who do have
some skills to see fit to maybe maybe maybe design the feature you want".
"You small man" you might add, and that would then apply to me.
Belittling users who have no coding skills in this fashion.... and
completely wrong in the first place, as it may be. Oh, you might say,
then why don't you say so! You might work for us! Suddenly the tone
changes and instead of filing bug reports (however mundane) I would
now be required to do that work myself, right?
Free work!!
Oops. Yes, as a user I might be thankful on my knees that these great
developers have even seen fit to create the product in the first
place, and that I, as an insignificant being, am even allowed to use
it, in the first place.
Treated as some kind of worm, or some lowly being.
"Your subjective feelings are irrelevant". Really. What if those
subjective feelings might in the end come down to work opportunity and
employment opportunity being lost for you, yourself? You are taking a
big gamble here man.
Maybe the small fly ends up being something bigger than that.
Funny, some people in positions of authority or power often pose as
small people to elicit responses like that. I don't know of many that
do. A Bishop in the united states, once attended his own Christmas
sermon dressed up as a beggar. After most of those good faith
Christians had tried to shoo him out of his own Christmas church, he
doffed his attire and proceeded to say that he didn't mean to shame
them, but all the same it should provide a lesson as to how people are
often judged by appearances, and that perhaps it should not be a right
thing to do. Unrelated here, but some C.E.O.'s do the same, I'm sure.
This person says "feel free to report a bug" after saying that no one
is going to listen to it anyway.
Since these are just "subjective feelings" anyway, and "millions of
users" that you never asked never complained about it to your knowledge.
The question of whether something /should/ work in a certain way, is
apparently not important.
And yes, people get fired for such things. However much you may
disagree with that, for instance, an employee for the Linux Foundation
was pretty much fired after publicly attacking the proposals of a
member (or sponsor) organisation. So I would say to watch your words,
and do not assume you can know whom you are talking to, or whether
something will not bite you in the end.
A more sane and polite approach, yourself, might be advisable. Try to
act in a way in which you will never need to apologize, even if you
turn out to have been wrong. Try to assume best intents, and try to
assume knowledge on the part of the other. Also try to assume
competence, in the beginning. Try to assume that what someone is
saying, might actually have some merit. You might come much farther in
life, if you do so.
And don't risk getting burned for some arrogance popping out in case
no one else can hear it, you think, or it is being said to someone who
doesn't matter anyway.
And my name, it doesn't matter, but you can find out easily.
And I am someone of complete insignificance, after all.
Or, as dr. Evil liked to say, "The details of my life are
inconsequential".
;-).
Regards, B.
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