On 03/02/2019 00:46, Paolo Costa wrote:
Dear Paolo and Pascal,
Dear Paolo,
in passing, do note that a smearing of 0.1 Ry will help the code
to converge, but is equivalent to a temperature of ~15000 K. At this
temperature, the electrons will want to expand, and the cluster will
expand, since it's free to do so (would be slightly different for a bulk
at fixed volume) - so you get a converged result, but not to the correct
solution.
The correct solution would be in the limit of zero smearing - I would
stay around 0.01 Ry with gaussian, and maybe double that with
Methfessel-Paxton or cold smearing.
nicola
thanks a lot! the optimization worked out.
Here the input file I used:
&CONTROL
calculation = "relax"
prefix ='PdNP_85_LDA_repeated'
forc_conv_thr = 1.0e-04
max_seconds = 1.34369e+14
nstep = 400
pseudo_dir = "/home/pcosta/pseudo"
verbosity ='high'
disk_io ='none'
tprnfor = .TRUE.
tstress = .TRUE.
/
&SYSTEM
a = 3.50000e+01
degauss = 0.10
ecutrho = 1.33000e+02
ecutwfc = 3.2000e+01
lda_plus_u = .FALSE.
ibrav = 1
nat = 85
nspin = 1
ntyp = 1
occupations = "smearing"
smearing = "gaussian"
starting_magnetization(1) = 2.00000e-01
vdw_corr = 'grimme-d3'
/
&ELECTRONS
conv_thr = 1.00000e-06
diagonalization = "david"
mixing_beta = 0.2
electron_maxstep = 250
startingpot = "atomic"
startingwfc = "atomic+random"
/
&IONS
ion_dynamics = "bfgs"
trust_radius_min=1e-5
/
K_POINTS {gamma}
ATOMIC_SPECIES
Pd 106.42000 Pd.pz-n-kjpaw_psl.0.2.2.UPF
ATOMIC_POSITIONS {angstrom}
Pd 15.651285575 15.839374147 18.141807297
Pd 13.679056221 15.884950248 16.365856521
Pd 15.268237302 16.891958404 14.493223618
Pd 17.301218578 16.863360888 16.267767127
Pd 18.952157486 17.887594602 14.394258626
Pd 19.333870884 16.834272033 18.042753506
Pd 20.924289227 17.841280514 16.170670472
Pd 17.677693493 15.827324971 19.857009409
Pd 16.925472930 17.898755823 12.680268897
Pd 18.601786362 18.902020156 10.887397463
Pd 20.549619421 18.876757822 12.582398423
Pd 22.491344678 18.847147992 14.284321610
Pd 19.717617469 15.826169876 21.549335603
Pd 21.299858715 16.804885871 19.759553610
Pd 22.875614738 17.784234547 17.964625795
Pd 24.335776502 18.761121932 16.080607063
Pd 11.726854806 15.940763191 14.573056501
Pd 13.301987076 16.920472702 12.777222925
Pd 14.884747364 17.899511731 10.987571218
Pd 16.572146513 18.872214097 9.301472338
Pd 10.267968628 14.964129845 16.458234547
Pd 12.113133781 14.879139102 18.254145743
Pd 14.055309645 14.850061457 19.954611618
Pd 16.002439732 14.824519081 21.649266248
Pd 18.031246953 14.853271531 23.236256975
Pd 14.529736800 19.233797150 13.238919886
Pd 16.278553919 20.181160843 11.500003883
Pd 18.351036459 20.265548998 13.135708442
Pd 16.649456198 19.155047142 15.001250246
Pd 18.682445457 19.126118294 16.775948752
Pd 14.999088803 18.131301175 16.874846070
Pd 17.031810590 18.102154792 18.649842313
Pd 12.930989911 18.242545125 15.054042319
Pd 20.319881420 20.237448837 14.855372742
Pd 22.218399030 20.096652149 16.687364303
Pd 20.715373290 19.144927271 18.639274762
Pd 19.116272595 18.153794322 20.454284373
Pd 11.455176687 17.190750201 16.975857705
Pd 13.328124264 17.151051999 18.837421635
Pd 15.297192647 17.123309857 20.556324308
Pd 17.394693643 17.106786889 22.161805340
Pd 14.284585932 13.488967167 17.681441465
Pd 12.385442330 13.629025211 15.851198256
Pd 13.887343396 14.580448662 13.897518093
Pd 15.920952882 14.600458991 15.759545830
Pd 17.571054017 15.624339456 13.886162858
Pd 17.953445344 14.571551624 17.534658103
Pd 19.603766010 15.595538542 15.660368741
Pd 16.253646252 13.460748816 19.400529683
Pd 15.485853950 15.572066359 12.082392617
Pd 17.208242311 16.619537138 10.375944445
Pd 19.306484240 16.603833352 11.980031507
Pd 21.275496050 16.575698903 13.698639890
Pd 18.325532455 13.543840335 21.037008568
Pd 20.073073192 14.491767501 19.297173959
Pd 21.671281215 15.483425835 17.481917148
Pd 23.148188056 16.534682525 15.561081812
Pd 17.832346678 14.425101128 11.582975732
Pd 16.118155202 13.351650053 13.308870817
Pd 14.586297993 12.412028179 15.268992287
Pd 18.208467162 13.390560809 15.170608536
Pd 16.515408062 12.261058334 17.092807469
Pd 19.937609884 14.383750261 13.206042500
Pd 21.831454723 14.368420869 15.072970864
Pd 20.334156588 13.292706454 16.989320572
Pd 18.585153218 12.354702233 18.759817502
Pd 12.771610446 19.357929230 17.462453513
Pd 14.268072486 20.434374744 15.545717088
Pd 16.018744682 21.370926424 13.775986473
Pd 16.394322083 20.335905860 17.364206491
Pd 18.088791181 21.466118339 15.442640764
Pd 14.665078474 19.342774246 19.328864992
Pd 16.769990839 19.301584943 20.953296318
Pd 18.484679771 20.373966817 19.226470308
Pd 20.017520681 21.314373913 17.267945737
Pd 18.456350644 12.234806438 12.798131152
Pd 16.791841651 11.202542298 14.688738874
Pd 18.842833456 11.173779026 16.478312439
Pd 20.507060685 12.206102772 14.587709360
Pd 15.760582697 22.552940771 16.056045534
Pd 14.095390866 21.521164276 17.946726797
Pd 16.146027543 21.491504345 19.736660234
Pd 17.811353844 22.523469659 17.846600204
Pd 15.539077757 23.606476640 18.395432431
Pd 19.064257281 10.120552913 14.138271805
Il giorno sab 2 feb 2019 alle ore 11:08 Paolo Costa
<[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> ha scritto:
Dear Paolo and Pascal,
thanks a lot for your advices.
I will let you know if it worked.
Paolo
Il giorno sab 2 feb 2019 alle ore 07:59 Paolo Giannozzi
<[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> ha scritto:
I would also decrease nstep: if something does not converge in a
hundred steps or so, it will never converge.
This kind of behavior typically indicates that there is a
mismatch between the forces and the energy (that is: the forces
are not exactly the gradient of the energy). The
Tkatchenko-Scheffler method seems to have a similar problem (see
Issue #88: https://gitlab.com/QEF/q-e/issues/88). I would first
of all check whether DFT-D3 has a similar problem as well (e.g.
by removing it, or replacing it with DFT-D).
Possible solutions:
- find the origin of the mentioned discrepancy (good luck)
- increase convergence thresholds (it is likely that the code is
oscillating between two almost equal configurations)
- use a minimization algorithm based on energies only, or (more
likely) on forces only, such as damped dynamics
Paolo
On Sat, Feb 2, 2019 at 9:53 AM pboulet
<[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>
wrote:
Hello,
I would try to increase a little degauss, e.g. to 0.05.
I would also decrease electron_maxstep to 250. It will
change nothing to the convergence, but at least if it fails
you will have gain time!
HTH
Pascal Boulet
—
/Professor in computational chemistry - DEPARTMENT OF CHEMISTRY/
Director of the Madirel laboratory
Aix-Marseille University - Avenue Escadrille Normandie
Niemen - F-13013 Marseille - FRANCE
Tél: +33(0)4 13 55 18 19 - Fax : +33(0)4 13 55 18 50
Email : [email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>
Le 2 févr. 2019 à 01:47, Paolo Costa
<[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>
a écrit :
Dear QE users,
I am trying to optimize a cluster containing 85 palladium
atoms.
However it seems that the calculation enters in a loop and
it does not converge, here the energy for each cycle:
! total energy = -27326.55422382 Ry
! total energy = -27327.06749227 Ry
! total energy = -27327.44742387 Ry
! total energy = -27327.76043984 Ry
! total energy = -27327.83241782 Ry
! total energy = -27327.84760427 Ry
! total energy = -27327.85426380 Ry
! total energy = -27327.85726693 Ry
! total energy = -27327.85858776 Ry
! total energy = -27327.85958983 Ry
! total energy = -27327.86039255 Ry
! total energy = -27327.86087175 Ry
! total energy = -27327.86115383 Ry
! total energy = -27327.86135810 Ry
! total energy = -27327.86152017 Ry
! total energy = -27327.86162682 Ry
! total energy = -27327.86171309 Ry
! total energy = -27327.86180281 Ry
! total energy = -27327.86188529 Ry
! total energy = -27327.86193621 Ry
! total energy = -27327.86196966 Ry
! total energy = -27327.86200675 Ry
! total energy = -27327.86203109 Ry
! total energy = -27327.86205804 Ry
! total energy = -27327.86207529 Ry
! total energy = -27327.86209972 Ry
! total energy = -27327.86211808 Ry
! total energy = -27327.86212653 Ry
! total energy = -27327.86213274 Ry
! total energy = -27327.86213618 Ry
! total energy = -27327.86214367 Ry
! total energy = -27327.86214649 Ry
! total energy = -27327.86215043 Ry
! total energy = -27327.86214971 Ry
! total energy = -27327.86214997 Ry
! total energy = -27327.86215111 Ry
! total energy = -27327.86215060 Ry
! total energy = -27327.86215121 Ry
! total energy = -27327.86215071 Ry
! total energy = -27327.86215091 Ry
_! total energy = -27327.86215071 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215074 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215098 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215071 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215074 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215098 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215071 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215074 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215098 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215071 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215074 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215098 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215071 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215074 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215098 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215071 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215074 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215098 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215071 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215074 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215098 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215071 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215074 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215098 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215071 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215074 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215098 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215071 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215074 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215098 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215071 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215074 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215098 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215071 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215074 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215098 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215071 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215074 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215098 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215071 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215074 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215098 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215071 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215074 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215098 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215071 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215074 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215098 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215071 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215074 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215098 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215071 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215074 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215098 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215071 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215074 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215098 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215071 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215074 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215098 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215071 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215074 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215098 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215071 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215074 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215098 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215071 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215074 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215098 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215071 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215074 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215098 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215071 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215074 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215098 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215071 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215074 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215098 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215071 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215074 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215098 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215071 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215074 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215098 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215071 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215074 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215098 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215071 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215074 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215098 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215071 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215074 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215098 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215071 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215074 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215098 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215071 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215074 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215098 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215071 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215074 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215098 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215071 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215074 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215098 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215071 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215074 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215098 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215071 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215074 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215098 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215071 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215074 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215098 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215071 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215074 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215098 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215071 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215074 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215098 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215071 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215074 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215098 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215071 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215074 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215098 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215071 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215074 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215098 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215071 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215074 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215098 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215071 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215074 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215098 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215071 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215074 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215098 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215071 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215074 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215098 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215071 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215074 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215098 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215071 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215074 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215098 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215071 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215074 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215098 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215071 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215074 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215098 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215071 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215074 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215098 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215071 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215074 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215098 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215071 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215074 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215098 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215071 Ry_
_! total energy = -27327.86215074 Ry_
I would like to know how to solve the problem. In addition
here my input file.
Thanks in advance.
&CONTROL
calculation = "relax"
prefix ='PdNP_85_LDA'
forc_conv_thr = 1.0e-04
max_seconds = 1.34369e+14
nstep = 800
pseudo_dir = "/home/pcosta/pseudo"
verbosity ='high'
disk_io ='none'
tprnfor = .TRUE.
tstress = .TRUE.
/
&SYSTEM
a = 3.50000e+01
degauss = 1.50000e-02
ecutrho = 1.33000e+02
ecutwfc = 3.2000e+01
lda_plus_u = .FALSE.
ibrav = 1
nat = 85
nspin = 1
ntyp = 1
occupations = "smearing"
smearing = "gaussian"
starting_magnetization(1) = 2.00000e-01
vdw_corr = 'grimme-d3'
/
&ELECTRONS
conv_thr = 1.00000e-08
diagonalization = "david"
mixing_beta = 0.2
electron_maxstep = 800
startingpot = "atomic"
startingwfc = "atomic+random"
/
&IONS
ion_dynamics = "bfgs"
trust_radius_min=1e-5
/
K_POINTS {gamma}
ATOMIC_SPECIES
Pd 106.42000 Pd.pz-n-kjpaw_psl.0.2.2.UPF
ATOMIC_POSITIONS {angstrom}
Pd 15.776820 15.903080 18.073770
Pd 13.861740 15.947890 16.372170
Pd 15.426330 16.891080 14.607090
Pd 17.339080 16.844820 16.311460
Pd 18.903660 17.788010 14.546390
Pd 19.237700 16.790950 18.028860
Pd 20.816440 17.748340 16.229570
Pd 17.689590 15.856780 19.778310
Pd 16.975260 17.828530 12.847760
Pd 18.570070 18.796940 11.026040
Pd 20.500000 18.751390 12.742100
Pd 22.364760 18.706220 14.403920
Pd 19.600740 15.810070 21.482820
Pd 21.206620 16.763870 19.717150
Pd 22.748800 17.737590 17.835530
Pd 24.322110 18.688150 16.053790
Pd 11.886050 15.964270 14.712830
Pd 13.491300 16.916240 12.952550
Pd 15.004030 17.840610 11.205900
Pd 16.545790 18.780840 9.431780
Pd 10.275990 14.989220 16.543560
Pd 12.269750 14.998870 18.133740
Pd 14.170130 14.930450 19.899420
Pd 16.138350 14.920080 21.533320
Pd 18.056230 14.884320 23.208070
Pd 14.812290 19.063690 13.385100
Pd 16.379960 20.041440 11.613080
Pd 18.303760 20.017670 13.301860
Pd 16.728710 19.035300 15.082270
Pd 18.648070 19.012670 16.763720
Pd 15.156510 18.054700 16.859480
Pd 17.076040 18.034690 18.532810
Pd 13.234570 18.083640 15.155940
Pd 20.227600 19.993890 14.990690
Pd 22.151300 19.970120 16.679380
Pd 20.570710 18.988560 18.452590
Pd 18.987980 18.008990 20.217740
Pd 11.679690 17.105560 16.939740
Pd 13.591300 17.086050 18.604820
Pd 15.497560 17.050130 20.317280
Pd 17.401810 17.014340 22.027600
Pd 14.353250 13.784050 17.521250
Pd 12.421840 13.836590 15.841810
Pd 13.994670 14.793240 14.062880
Pd 15.935220 14.740470 15.750230
Pd 17.500910 15.694120 13.975160
Pd 17.872280 14.687800 17.434540
Pd 19.429680 15.639620 15.658700
Pd 16.284240 13.728290 19.210540
Pd 15.567540 15.749910 12.283910
Pd 17.140290 16.706510 10.505080
Pd 19.073920 16.650450 12.197390
Pd 20.999510 16.591890 13.891230
Pd 18.226670 13.682240 20.878200
Pd 19.776270 14.629820 19.109600
Pd 21.374640 15.586780 17.349740
Pd 22.970990 16.542650 15.591720
Pd 17.813280 14.564160 11.809350
Pd 16.272540 13.570020 13.595860
Pd 14.725500 12.579240 15.366950
Pd 18.215930 13.541560 15.273450
Pd 16.666980 12.552890 17.036500
Pd 19.760790 14.538960 13.480320
Pd 21.688380 14.503850 15.165370
Pd 20.145540 13.519610 16.919810
Pd 18.618160 12.524270 18.720940
Pd 12.824840 19.253220 17.422890
Pd 14.389300 20.188650 15.625310
Pd 15.937510 21.120970 13.823770
Pd 16.330060 20.205960 17.306090
Pd 17.870000 21.136320 15.503860
Pd 14.759580 19.267480 19.108760
Pd 16.705570 19.291080 20.772730
Pd 18.237800 20.217270 18.977850
Pd 19.818670 21.153740 17.191370
Pd 18.518490 12.413770 12.842670
Pd 16.923030 11.449920 14.609650
Pd 18.863830 11.377970 16.278280
Pd 20.420780 12.330080 14.518590
Pd 15.802800 22.375450 16.028650
Pd 14.249000 21.410550 17.831820
Pd 16.203800 21.434420 19.485420
Pd 17.719490 22.386670 17.690140
Pd 15.573820 23.543960 18.485200
Pd 19.033400 10.228370 14.054610
--
Paolo Costa, Ph.D.
Postdoctoral Researcher
Department of Chemistry and Biomolecular Sciences
University of Ottawa
10 Marie Curie, Ottawa, ON K1N 6N5, Canada
Room number: DRO 326 (D'Iorio Hall)
_______________________________________________
users mailing list
[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>
https://lists.quantum-espresso.org/mailman/listinfo/users
_______________________________________________
users mailing list
[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>
https://lists.quantum-espresso.org/mailman/listinfo/users
--
Paolo Giannozzi, Dip. Scienze Matematiche Informatiche e Fisiche,
Univ. Udine, via delle Scienze 208, 33100 Udine, Italy
Phone +39-0432-558216, fax +39-0432-558222
_______________________________________________
users mailing list
[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>
https://lists.quantum-espresso.org/mailman/listinfo/users
--
Paolo Costa, Ph.D.
Postdoctoral Researcher
Department of Chemistry and Biomolecular Sciences
University of Ottawa
10 Marie Curie, Ottawa, ON K1N 6N5, Canada
Room number: DRO 326 (D'Iorio Hall)
--
Paolo Costa, Ph.D.
Postdoctoral Researcher
Department of Chemistry and Biomolecular Sciences
University of Ottawa
10 Marie Curie, Ottawa, ON K1N 6N5, Canada
Room number: DRO 326 (D'Iorio Hall)
_______________________________________________
users mailing list
[email protected]
https://lists.quantum-espresso.org/mailman/listinfo/users
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Prof Nicola Marzari, Chair of Theory and Simulation of Materials, EPFL
Director, National Centre for Competence in Research NCCR MARVEL, EPFL
http://theossrv1.epfl.ch/Main/Contact http://nccr-marvel.ch/en/project
_______________________________________________
users mailing list
[email protected]
https://lists.quantum-espresso.org/mailman/listinfo/users
