On 8/31/06, ArneD <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:



Eric Redmond wrote:
>
> Any more reasons? Care to expand these ideas?
>

Hi Eric,

for corporate users, I believe there are some additional issues to the
ones
already named.

Especially in large companies, it is often unacceptable to let users
download artefacts directly from an Internet repository, even not through
a
proxy. Companies need to have full control over all artifacts used in
their
build processes, that means that only artefacts that have been explicitly
released by someone should be used.


I don't understand  why a Proxy is unacceptible.  The administrator of the
Proxy can - at any time- disconnect the Proxy from the internet.

So when you start using Maven, you want
to immediately set up an internal repository which, I believe, is still a
too complicated task.


We did this by enacting a single build on our projects and let Proximity
fill itself. Once it has the artifacts it needs, disconnect it.

This is especially true for setting up an internal plugin repository. We did
not find a comfortable way to initially fill an internal plugin
repository.
You should be able to say "fill my plugin repository with all required
JARs
for the plugins x, y and z". Our workaround was to set up a Maven
reference
installation zip, that already has all required plugin JARs in its local
repository, so that users who unzip that archive have everything they
need.


Why can't you solve this with an in-house remote repository, rather than
zipping up jars for local repos?

Another point is, plugin JARs and production JARs should be separated. This
is already possible for remote repositories, but it should be possible for
the local repository as well. Tool JARs like xerces etc. are used both by
plugins and by projects. But just because some plugin needs a JAR file,
corporate users do not want to make that JAR available for builds.
Corporate
users just don't want to get tools mixed up with production software.


Why does your build software get mixed up with your production software?
Using the release or dependency plugins will not bundle build tools with the
jars to be released.

Anyway, Maven is a great piece of software, full of great ideas. But some
things still need to be improved before Maven has chances to achieve a
wide
acceptance.


Unless I'm really misunderstanding the problems, I haven't seen a problem
you've had that is inherent to Maven (except possibly by creating a mirror
repository with a set of dependencies). I'd chalk-up many of your problems
to lack of documentation or guidence, which we all agree is a problem.

I too handle large-scale corporate builds for a living, and that is part of
the reason for this poll. The problems I have had with Maven are few and far
between, mostly related to my own ignorance of where to look for help, or
bugs in the code. But I still hear from people  who refuse to use Maven and
I was intrigued as to why, since my own experience has been largely positive
- especially in the corporate space. I am finding more often than not that
people who have difficulty with Maven are attempting to use it it in
non-standard ways, or refuse to alter their project structures to match. Is
this a hubris of Maven or of the project developers? That is a question for
philosophers. What I do know is that Maven is a conceptual project
framework, as much as a software build system - just like Object Oriented
programming is as much conceptual construct, as it is a programming
language's tenet. Just as OO has evolved design patterns, and ant has best
practices, I feel that a lot of the problems with Maven are a lack of simple
"how-tos", largely due in part that its concepts are so new. Does than mean
that Maven is not worth using? I doubt it... as Russ mentioned above, Ant
can always be your stopgap.

Eric

Arne

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