Reading is good...let me know when you find the book that tells you how to start with the correct model. I definitely want to get a copy ;)
Rob @objectsource.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Haynes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "MyFaces Discussion" <[email protected]> Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 9:32 AM Subject: Re: JSF + Spring + Hibernate > Well, there was no smiley on this, so I will assume you are serious in > your question. > > This may have been true for Thomas Edison, but I don't think you went > out and tried to build your own light bulb. Even if you did, you would > use the knowledge that you observed from looking at Edison's working > version (and via the patent would be able to see how Edison's worked). > > I don't claim to be an Edison, but I can learn from them instead of > starting with first principles every time. There is a book series called > "Think in Java" that doesn't spend a lot of time documenting every > feature of the Java language but, instead, talks about how to think > about your problem in terms of the Java programming model. What I was > expressing was my desire for something similar for data-coupled web > applications. > > -david- > > Rob Decker wrote: > > >What makes you think you start with the correct model? You have to be able > >to create 2000 incorrect models; then you can create the correct one. Just > >ask Thomas Edison. > > > > > >Rob > > > >@objectsource.org > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "David Haynes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >To: "MyFaces Discussion" <[email protected]> > >Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 9:00 AM > >Subject: Re: JSF + Spring + Hibernate > > > > > > > > > >>I'm going through that phase now waiting for the epiphany to strike... > >> > >>What I would really like is an article about thinking in ORM (ala > >>Hibernate or EJB) that doesn't talk about how the APIs are put together > >>but, instead, deals with concepts like: this is how to think about > >>modeling in ORM, this is how to structure stuff in Hibernate for a > >>data-backed bean, or this is how to set up your source area to make all > >>this a little clearer. A diagrammatic modeling method would also be of > >>great value. Heck, even a suggested naming practice would be nice! Is > >>that XxxAction, XxxController, XxxBean, XxxBackingBean, XxxModel, > >>XxxDAO, etc.? > >> > >>Maybe I'm being a little selfish, but it seems to me that the majority > >>of postings about backing-store issues are from poor sods such as myself > >>who are trying to simply create data-coupled web applications that won't > >>fall apart with the first change. (i.e. that use well structured > >>toolkits to assist). With all the options that are available, it is > >>difficult to get one scenario working, let alone being able to compare > >>solutions in some meaningful way. Every time an issue comes up, the > >>answer seems to be to add another software layer, from another > >>development group, with another model/philosophy for how the solution > >>should be coded. Having reference implementations helps to some degree, > >>but if you are missing the fundamental concepts, the reference > >>implementations can end up being confusing since they tend to highlight > >>the differences/features of the particular implementation over the > >>competition. Even the books with implementations in them tend to dive > >>directly into the code without addressing the modeling aspect and the > >>thinking that goes into creating the correct model to begin with. > >> > >>-david- > >> > >>Joshua Davis wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >>>Sorry 'bout the head banging! :( If there's anything I can do to help, > >>> > >>> > >let > > > > > >>>me know. > >>> > >>>You are absolutely, positively 100% correct about 'getting a grip' on > >>>Hibernate. > >>> > >>>It's actually more fundamental than that: You need to have a good > >>>understanding of ORM in general in order to use Hibernate (or EJB > >>> > >>> > >Entities, > > > > > >>>or TOPLink, etc.) effectively. For me, understanding ORM was a 'leap' > >>> > >>> > >that > > > > > >>>was similar to when I went from structured programming to OOP. > >>> > >>>[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>>-----Original Message----- > >>>>From: news [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Werner Punz > >>>>Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 3:56 AM > >>>>To: [email protected] > >>>>Subject: Re: JSF + Spring + Hibernate > >>>> > >>>>One of the reasons why I am not that much a friend of > >>>>Hibernate anymore. > >>>>I did 4 projects with it, and the problems always were the same... > >>>>Overkill in mapping details, Session handling and choking on > >>>>pojos in which made things more complicated than they should > >>>>be, failurs in dependency resolution on write over more > >>>>complicated data structures, which then had to be resolved manually... > >>>> > >>>>Constant banging the heads on small stuff, like having a > >>>>clean and proper way to resolve m:n issues. Sometimes there > >>>>are errors where Hibernate simply does nothing but does not > >>>>even throw errors. > >>>> > >>>>Dont get me wrong, Hibernate is an excellent tool, and > >>>>basically has solved most of not all issues you constantly > >>>>run into with Object Relational mappins and OODBs, but it is > >>>>options overkill and definitely not easy to handle. > >>>>I am not sure which is more complicated the EJB approach or > >>>>the options overkill in Hibernate, which does not force you > >>>>into anything, but often simply fails with leaving you > >>>>standing in the rain. > >>>> > >>>>My opinion is, there must be some kind of middle way, to give > >>>>you enough flexibility but does not push you into such a huge > >>>>complex layer, Hibernate has evolved into, also 90% of the > >>>>main problem you constantly have with hibernate is the > >>>>complicated way the session handles the pojos... Dump the > >>>>wrong pojo into the session and you get a object has been > >>>>used failure.... Run out of the session hibernate chokes on > >>>>lazy access instead of trying to resolve the problem by > >>>>opening another one and trying to load the rest automatically... > >>>> > >>>>I would say, Hibernate is the worst/best working solution you > >>>>can get from OSS in regards to ORM mapping, but one thing is > >>>>for sure, it made things definitely not easier, although if > >>>>you have a grip on it, you can save a lot of time, but > >>>>aquiring the grip is a hard task, even with the excellent docs. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > >
