Hi! Sergiu Dumitriu wrote: > On 11/01/2010 12:50 PM, Gregory GUENEAU wrote: > >> Hi everyone, >> >> I am +1 to make stabilization work, on a couple of releases >> I am +1 to have soon a 3.0 release >> And i am +1 on the content vincent propose >> >> But my point of view is -1 stepping the release family number because the >> main purpose of what is discussed here is stabilization, and not showing the >> path of 3.x family. >> >> Therefore : >> - do we consider a january 2011 release to be stable enough ? >> - stabilization work wouldn'it be leading then to the last 2.x version >> instead of the first 3.x family version ? >> - is there behind it a consensus on what we will concentrate our effort in >> 3.x versions ? I mean thematics we can talk about. >> - therefore, are we in a situation where we can vote on the global thematics >> we will develop in 3.x releases ? >> - do we have a clear consensus short list of features that show the path of >> 3.x family ? >> - in consequence of that, is the release content here send a clear message >> to uneducated publics about what is in this future 3.x versions ? >> - do educated people care this much about release number, that we absolutely >> have to release a 3.0 with the content presented below ? >> > > From the committers' point of view, it makes perfect sense for 3.0 to > be the culmination of the 2.x releases, but I'm not sure the users > understand this as well, so I'm extending the question to the users list. > > Traditionally, proprietary software is developed behind the curtains, > and it's normal to have one big release every two years, with lots of > new features and some bugs which get fixed in subsequent bugfix > releases. Marketing comes mostly from the proprietary software world, so > from a marketing point of view, this is the "normal" way releases work. > > In the open source world, since the development is done in the open, it > doesn't make sense to stash code away in a repository and only release > it once every two years. Still, most big projects use a release > versioning scheme similar to the proprietary products, but with a slight > difference which deeply changes the meaning. While proprietary products > use only a number (3, 8, 2010...), with eventual bugfixes versions (SP2, > 5.5), open source usually has 3 numbers in its versions, with the > following meanings: > > The first number changes rarely, and when it does, it signals a critical > change, like a complete rewrite of the codebase, a change of paradigm, > or major new features. The second number is the one that actually > identifies a release. The third number is the bugfix version. So, when > we say that PHP 5.3.2 was released, we actually say that version 3 of > PHP5, which is a different thing than PHP4, has been released again, > giving the second bugfix release. KDE 4.5.1 means version 5 of KDE4 saw > its first bugfix release. > > Another tendency is for open source software to linger towards a major > release. For example, lots of software have a lot of releases before > 1.0, going nearer and nearer: 0.6, 0.9, 0.9.9... And everybody knows > that 0.x comes before 1.0, and it's not just a bugfix version of an > imaginary 0.0 release. > > A different topic is that of agile development, with very short releases > (2-3 weeks) for which traditional version number make no sense, since > such a product would reach version 42 in a couple of years. Either an > identifier, such as the SCM version number is used, or a continuous > counter (v1.42) is used. Since the software evolves in a fluid manner, > without a "breakthrough" version coming out of the regular releases, a > "major" version is released when the current features are stable and > they mix well together in a coherent product. Since releases come so > frequently, it's normal for users to be split into two categories: those > that follow the releases and know how the software is evolving, and > those that only monitor the major releases, and which see all the > continuous improvements at once. > > While XWiki Enterprise is used in the enterprise environment, and it is > backed by commercial companies, it is a true open source project, > following an open source release model, so I don't think that a > proprietary product release scheme is suited. > > Our development/release style is closer to the agile development > practice, albeit with mixed release types. In the future, once the core > is more stable than it is now, we'd like to move even closer to a full > agile release process, with 2-3 weeks between final releases. Thus, I > believe that the last release versioning strategy is the best for XWiki > Enterprise. > > Note that we're already using this strategy in a more obvious way for > smaller modules (applications, skins, tools), where we do have 1.32 as a > stable version number. > > Also note that although 1.9 was followed by 2.0, this was just a > coincidence, and not a natural version evolution, since we also felt > that the code was mature enough to receive a major number bump, but it > could just as well have been followed by a 1.10. > > So, there are two different opinions here. One that 3.0 should present > the groundwork/roadmap for the following 3.x releases, and one that 3.0 > should be the culmination of the work done so far on the 2.x releases. > > The committers (with the exception of Ludovic) believe that the latter > is the better one, and it is in accordance with what we've been doing so > far. What do our users think? > > > As a final remark, the XWiki Open Source projects are governed by the > committers, so in the end the decision lies in the hands of the > developers, but we're always open to the larger community. If no > consensus is reached about when to release 3.0, we will continue > releasing 2.x versions. > > > What do XWiki users think? Is 3.0 as a culmination of the 2.x releases, > with no major new features besides what 2.5 already provides, something > the community expects? > >
I don't know if I must consider myself in Gregory's educated or uneducated groups, but I really feel myself us included in Sergiu's users category that try to follow software development. I've two main reasons to do that: 1. I try to find solutions for I want to do with our team mates as far as possible 2. I would eventually like to somehow contribute to XWiki development. Being in that situation, it doesn't matter to me if what is coming next is a 2.x release, or a 3.0 one. What I would like to have is a clear idea about what must be able to get working in a given major release. And, if it does not work, to understand why. Let me put three examples: 1. PDF styling (recently fixed by Sergiu; I guess this relates with the new rendering architecture) 2. Lucene indexing 3. Database List and Database Tree property types All three features have been included time ago enough as considering them stable. Am I wrong? I am still not able to know if I must be able to get these three features working, let's say, in a XE 2.5 installation. Or what kind of software I must use, I mean, database and application/servlet server I must use to guarantee "my" users that they will be able to index their contents and use the very nice Lucene features to find contents in attachments. Or search contents in document title. Or whatever you know Lucene is able to do. Similar comments could be done concerning points 1) and 3) Thus, I guess this "stabilization work" you speak about must deal with this issues. Mustn't it? We want "clean" code and a clear idea about what we can do, and what we can't. If this work leads to a 2.x release, or to a 3.0 is not an important decision from my point of view. But, I must insist, I'm a contaminated user! I try to follow all discussions and get an idea, as clear as my skills allow me, about how XWiki evolves. If I think in my own experience using commercial or open source software, as Ludovic said, I would never expect a x.0 release to be particularly stable. I can see it as a final point for the evolution of a x series, but something that has not been tested enough in field work as to expect it will be bug free. In this sense, I think that it will be clearer for me to get a 2.y Gold, GA, or RTM. with a far clear document saying me what I could expect and in what conditions. I know releases notes do that job. Well, something as Gold Release Notes will be welcome! One final remark: more than understanding the general release schema, what is really stopping some users to update more frequently is the update process by itself. I'm not saying it is difficult in itself, but is a bit dangerous. As Vincent recently propose in the devs list for the release process, I do think that a similar work must be done with the upgrade (and to add an entry here http://platform.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/AdminGuide/) and backup processes (I know this http://platform.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/AdminGuide/Backup). Thanks for your work and for sharing this discussion with the community! > >> We have to make 100% sure our message will be understood by market. We are >> now in the Gartner magic quadrant and will increase our visibility outside >> the opensource community. In a world where new release number families means >> : "we show the path of the future of this software, even if the features we >> present are not perfect", i will strongly promote to answer in details the >> questions i mentionned before deciding 2.8 to be in fact 3.0. >> > > XWiki SAS is in the Gartner report, as a vendor. The XWiki Enterprise > project is not in that report. I think the marketing direction that > Gregory and Ludovic are supporting is better suited for the company > offerings. > > >> Then here is the two elements that are probably the biggest things in the >> roadmap for 3.x versions : >> - going social (workspaces in xem, twitter like app, page stats for the >> user, etc.) >> - going to be an easy place to develop in (extension manager of course, but >> also documentation for dummies and a first app like "app within minute" >> proposed by guillaume and strongly needed by our front team) >> >> Is there a consensus on this list ? Then what should be the "demo" features >> we could present to be consistent for a 3.0 release ? >> > > Yes, these should be central in the future 3.x releases, but not in 3.0, > which should be as stable as possible, without any "demo" features. > > >> Best >> >> >> >> On 1 nov. 2010, at 09:23, Vincent Massol<[email protected]> wrote: >> >> >>> Hi everyone, >>> >>> Sergiu started mentioning the idea of a XE 3.0 when we defined the XE 2.6 >>> roadmap. We need a more general agreement that we want a XE 3.0 and how to >>> reach it. >>> >>> As Sergiu I believe we need a XE 3.0 ASAP for the following reasons: >>> >>> - it's been a bit more than 1 year since the XE 2.0 release and I feel it's >>> good to have one major release every year >>> - we've added **lots** of features since XE 2.0. Check >>> http://www.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Main/ReleaseNotes to get a feeling >>> - it's good for open source marketing >>> >>> Before being able to release XE 3.0 I think: >>> >>> - XE 2.6 is already planned for the 18th of November (with "mail this page" >>> and "recent activity" features + icon/emoticon and wikiword support that >>> was sneaked in surreptitiously) >>> - We should have a XE 2.7 release (1 month duration, ie leading us to the >>> 18th of December) to finish started stuff: >>> -- Finish the Gadget integration since it's been started already and it's >>> important. That said I'd actually be ok to not finish it if we think it's >>> too much to release XE 3.0 quickly according to the dates below. Anca to >>> tell us if it's possible in the timeframe. >>> -- First working extension manager that can be used to install XARs >>> (replaces the old Packager on the back end side). Thomas to tell us if it's >>> possible in the timeframe. >>> -- Recent Activity with apps sending events (XE 2.6 will already have a >>> good part of it) >>> -- UI finishing touches >>> -- Some additional Security and Performance improvements if possible >>> -- etc (add what you'd like to see absolutely here - it should be work >>> already started as much as possible and no new stuff) >>> - Release XE 3.0 one month after the XE 2.7 release, ie around 18th of >>> January - ie end of January 2011) >>> >>> Very important: XE 3.0 should be a maturation/conclusion release, i.e. >>> concluding all the work started in the 2.x series (same as what we did for >>> XE 2.0). It shouldn't be seen as revolutionary stuff that we should add >>> from now on since it'll take a year more before those can be fully >>> stabilized and we would loose the window of opportunity of doing a major >>> release now. >>> >>> Note: We shouldn't try to cram too much things in since that'll extend the >>> lead time to release XE 3.0 and we'll loose the stabilization effect. >>> >>> WDYT? >>> >>> Thanks >>> -Vincent >>> > > > -- Ricardo RodrÃguez CTO eBioTIC. Life Sciences, Data Modeling and Information Management Systems _______________________________________________ users mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/users
