In the US this would be called an "unfunded mandate" (where government
mandates something that the private sector must pay for). American
politicians avoid unfunded mandates like the plague.
Also, our country's track record for executing rational, well-planned
projects at the national level is not encouraging. The golden dollar coin
debacle is a recent example. I'm afraid kilopascal is right when he says
that only external pressure from the EU and the ASEAN group nations will
finally force the US to metricate. -- Jason
----- Original Message -----
From: Pat Naughtin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: U.S. Metric Association <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 25, 2002 3:18 PM
Subject: [USMA:24237] Re: Megagram, shmegagram!!!
on 2002-12-25 17.50, James-Jason Wentworth at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> A millimeter/meter convention is the ideal that I would like to see
> implemented in the US, but unfortunately it would never "fly" here.
>
> A parliamentary government like that in Australia has much more
> latitude to act without direct public participation at every step.
> ("They elected our party, we've selected our Prime Minister, and we
> will proceed with these programs. If the public doesn't like it, they
> can change parties in the next election.") In the US congressional
> system, the two parties share power and the President is elected
> separately. Because of this power sharing and the constant deference
> that Congress and the President give to public opinion, unpopular
> things like metrication are seldom implemented at the federal level. I
> do wish our leaders would actually lead more based on what would be
> good for the country rather than just consult poll results to formulate
> policy, but that is the nature of the US system. -- Jason
Dear Jason and All,
I think that you misunderstand the metrication process that took place in
Australia. The government simply said "the time is right to go metric", and
then said "and the costs will land where they fall". This meant that the
government was not going to subsidise the process, and that each industry
would have to bear its own costs.
The decision to use millimetres was made by the Construction Committee of
the Metric Conversion Board following wide consultation within the industry
and internationally. (During this consultation I'm sure that they heard the
phrase, 'unfortunately it would never "fly" here' on many occasions).
Following the consultation, they wrote:
"The metric units for linear measurement in building and construction will
be the metre (m) and the millimetre (mm), with the kilometre (km) being used
where required. This will apply to all sectors of the industry, and the
centimetre (cm) shall not be used.' and 'The centimetre should not be used
in any calculation and it should never be written down".
The net result was a very rapid and smooth metrication program.
I would like to stress that it was each industry that developed and
delivered their own programs for metrication at their own cost (and this was
often a negative cost because of metrication savings).
Industries were supported by government experts and government bureaucrats
but this involvement was minimal. One major expense of the government's
metrication involvement was for the public relations campaigns campaign. I
quote from Kevin J Wilks, 'Metrication in Australia':
"The Board's total expenditure on public relations for the 11 years was
$1 199 000 or 8.56 cents per person."
I think that this puts the Australian government's involvement in
perspective.
I'm sure that if your construction industry leaders:
1 were presented with relevant data
2 considered the same issues as their Australian counterparts, and
3 looked at the metrication experiences of Australian, New Zealand, and
South African builders
they would come to the same policy conclusions as we did.
Cheers,
Pat Naughtin LCAMS
Geelong, Australia
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Pat Naughtin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Tuesday, December 24, 2002 7:05 pm
> Subject: Re: [USMA:24218] Re: Megagram, shmegagram!!!
>
>> Dear Jason and All,
>>
>> I have interspersed some remarks.
>>
>> on 2002-12-25 10.59, James Wentworth at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>>
>>>> From my experience, plumbers and carpenters in the US *really*
>> dislike large
>>> items measured in millimeters.
>>
>> That's what they said here too, before they had ever used any metric
>> measures. In short, the Australian plumbers and carpenters were
>> using the
>> same conjecture but without any experience.
>>
>>> Millimeter-sized screws and drill bits are
>>> fine with them,
>>
>> Same here. They claimed that small measures would be OK in
>> millimetres.However, some then claimed that centimetres might be
>> better for bolt, screw,
>> and nail lengths. Again, Australian plumbers and carpenters were using
>> conjecture without experience.
>>
>>> but not things like 2400 mm sheets of plywood.
>>
>> Australian architects, bricklayers, carpenters, and plumbers now
>> happily use
>> millimetres to measure the whole job. I have seen drawings for a
>> house set
>> on land that was 151 340 x 20 160 and the only reference to any
>> measurementunits was the statement in the block of information in
>> one corner that read,
>> "All dimensions in mm".
>>
>> I reckon (again from my direct experience) that it took Australian
>> tradesmenabout a month to master these kinds of large numbers. And
>> the simple
>> statement, "All dimensions in mm" meant that they would never have
>> to use a
>> fraction ever again, nor would they have to convert between units
>> of any
>> kind. For this sort of simplicity, they quickly learned to accept
>> largenumbers.
>>
>>> Tradesmen
>>> here just don't like dealing with large numbers. Any US
>> metrication effort
>>> that does not have the support (or at least no opposition) from
>> these "Joe
>>> Sixpacks" is doomed to failure. -- Jason
>>
>> In 1970, I could have written that sentence referring to Australian
>> tradesmen; they proved me wrong!
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Pat Naughtin LCAMS
>> Geelong Australia
>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: Pat Naughtin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>> To: U.S. Metric Association <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 24, 2002 2:14 PM
>>> Subject: [USMA:24215] Re: Megagram, shmegagram!!!
>>>
>>>
>>> on 2002-12-22 00.42, James Wentworth at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>>> <snip>
>>>> [4] The decimeter should be included in any program to
>> popularize the
>>>> metric system in America. The most common complaint I've heard
>> and read
>>>> from tradesmen is that "the meter is too big and the centimeter
>> is too
>>>> small." Like Baby Bear's porridge, the decimeter would be
>> "just right."
>>> It
>>>> is close enough to the inch in size that carpenters and
>> plumbers (more of
>>>> those "Joe Sixpacks") would more readily accept metric rulers
>> if they had
>>>> three unit sizes to choose from (dm, cm, and mm). Even the USMA's
>>>> Swiss-made metric tapes are demarcated in decimeters by
>> printing each
>>>> decimeter in a different background color, so the decimeter
>> must be used
>>> at
>>>> least somewhat in Europe.
>>> <snip>
>>>
>>> My direct experiences are in direct contradiction to the
>> suggestions that
>>> you make in this paragraph.
>>>
>>> In Australia, the industries that chose to use millimetres made
>> a smooth and
>>> rapid conversion to metric measures, and the industries that
>> chose to use
>>> centimetres are still struggling with the conversion more than
>> thirty years
>>> later.
>>>
>>> No Australian industry chose decimetres for their metric conversion.
>>> Worldwide experience has shown that decimetres have never been used
>>> successfully during the change to metric. Their use around the
>> world is
>>> still quite limited.
>>>
>>> I have no idea why it is simpler and easier to convert to metric
>> using> millimetres and so much more difficult using centimetres. I
>> only know that
>>> my experience in working with the agricultural, architectural,
>> building,> carpentry, clothing, footwear, furniture, leather,
>> plumbing, textiles,
>>> timber, and welding industries tells me that this is so.
>>>
>>> Personally, I have no gripe with the units centimetre and
>> decimetre. I can
>>> slither decimal markers backwards and forwards quite readily
>> (and I �
>>> sometimes � assume that others can do the same)
>>>
>>> The fact is that the choice of units has little to do with Baby
>> Bear's> porridge and to assume it does is simply conjecture. If
>> you are looking for
>>> a model of metric conversion that works, then look for it in
>> those places
>>> where metric conversion has been done successfully. Conjecture
>> serves no
>>> useful purpose here.
>>>
>>> If you want a smooth and rapid conversion to metric measures, I
>> strongly> recommend that you choose millimetres for your small unit.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> Pat Naughtin LCAMS
>>> Geelong, Australia
>>>
>>
>>
>
