Thank you for your illuminating response. And thank you for forgiving my error in referring solely to England. Actually I was aware that England is only one part of the UK but I didn't understand that the controversy extended beyond England.
Anyway I hope the two issues are now becoming disentangled. It's easier for a democratic system to come to valid conclusions when dealing with separate issues rather than issues that are conjoined in some way. Makes me think of how the standard Republican positions (social conservatism, foreign policy hawkishness, and and laissez-faire economics) have sometimes been confused with one another in the U.S. --- Stephen Humphreys <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > "Can the subjects (England's relationship with the EU and metrication) really > ever be said to > overlap?" > > Firstly - please try not to make the usual American mistake of calling the UK > "England". We're > a country of four nations - thus - if one talks about "England's" > relationship with the EU then > I become excluded because I am Welsh. > I suspect you did mean the UK though (or even "Britain" if you don't want to > include N.I.) so > you're automatically forgiven ;-) ;-) ;-) > > A lot of people would not say 'overlap' but would go as far as to say that > it's "all the EU's > fault". I don't share that view. > My own view is that decisions have been made in the EU that were > rubberstamped by a government > that's sold us out (to the EU, not metrication). > I've yet to see a party manifesto that states "we will metricate the UK". > I would much prefer the debate to happen fully in the UK parliament and be > hammered out by MPs > and have nothing to do with it being sourced in the EU. But I'm against EU > membership so that > would be obvious for me to think that way! > There *is* EU involvement (through treaties and the like) but the EU did not > exactly "create" an > UK law regarding metrication. That's why I say "overlap". > > " On the one hand, I don't see why someone opposed to EU membership would > feel pressed to oppose > metric because of that" > > Furthermore - there are people who love the EU who also love imperial. > Likewise there are some > who want out of the EU but also want to see metrication in the UK (the > minority who see > themselves as "measurement warriors", ie the extremists, never quite > understand that!). > However, metric has become mixed up with the EU in many people's perceptions. > It's my opinion that the subject of metrication has been (almost) > irreversibly harmed by it's > association with the EU. > It's a fatal combination because I suspect that prior to the Common Market > becoming the EU (EEC, > EC, etc) popularity of the metric system in the UK might not have been that > low (I think I > remember seeing that it had near on 50% support). Then the transformation of > the Common Market > got underway (treaty after treaty, more power, etc). It became associated > with metric in > several ways, but mainly by politicians and the media. The EU has steadily > become less and less > popular in the UK. That reaction, with it's association with metric laws > etc, has had a > combined effect. Many opinion polls have put the popularity of metric at a > very low level - > anywhere between 75% and a 97% preference for imperial. Of course these > polls can be read in > different ways. My belief is that it has been a knock on effect from "what > people don't like > about being in the EU" (even from those who, on the whole, would prefer to > stay in the 'club'). > > I'll be bolder. If we exited the EU some decades ago - I suspect we'd either > be metric or close > to it. > > "And the EU has already decided they're willing to let England stay > non-metric forever, right?" > > Many (anti-EU, eurosceptic, "and on the fencers") would see that sentence as > the reason why the > EU is "the big villian". A political grouping based overseas "allowing" us > to do things. It's > a bit like roads etc that have the sign saying "funded by the EU". We're a > net contributor! ie. > we (simplistically) give someone a million quid to build a road costing half > a million quid and > then put a sign up praising the the person who built it! Anyhow - you touch > upon a good point. > If you re-word it slightly you have the best thing that's happened to metric > in decades (in the > UK) - ie, a disassociation of metric from the EU. Time will tell how that > permeates out. But > it would be easier to promote metric now, because it can be sold as something > more independant, > something more British. > > > And> the EU isn't the only otherwise metric international organization that > > England is a part > of, so if> you claim that just being a member of the EU would "peer-pressure" > you to be metric, > you'd have to> say the same about all those other organizations (The > Commonwealth of Nations, > etc.).> > > The British Commonwealth (for example) does not have lawmaking or > law-influencing powers, it > wasn't designed to do that. It can act in a persuasion manner (eg to prevent > a military > dictatorship, etc) but it can't impose laws via treaties etc. > Having said that I've been to many parts of the British Commonwealth that is > far from metric - > it's just that most people think of Canada, Australia and NZ when they talk > "commonwealth". > (This is not a British trait, I - for example - see the commonwealth in > action whenever I see an > international cricket match!!). > > "Am I missing something?" > > I've devoted a bit of time to answering many points - I hope they're > interesting even if some > might not agree with them. > It's my opinion that we should be out of the EU and therefore anything I say > will be biased that > way - thus - the above is mainly opinion or how I see things. Others will > have different views > and, to be honest, various views as this is not totally polar.> Date: Tue, 26 > Feb 2008 19:19:15 > -0800> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: [USMA:40492] Re: EU Council> To: > [email protected]> > > Can the subjects (England's relationship with the EU and metrication) really > ever be said to> > overlap? I don't know too much about it but I thought those issues were > pretty much > orthogonal...> err... guess I should say "disjoint" so as not to mix > metaphors.> > On the one > hand, I don't see why someone opposed to EU membership would feel pressed to > oppose> metric > because of that. Peru, Uzbekistan, South Korea, New Zealand, West Xylophone, > and Zimbabwe> don't > seem likely to join the EU and yet they've gone metric. Presumably they had > other reasons> for > doing so.> > On the other hand, I don't see why someone who supports EU > membership would feel > pressed to> support metric because of that. England is already an exception > to numerous EU > rules, is it not? > And the EU has already decided they're willing to let > England stay > non-metric forever, right? And> the EU isn't the only otherwise metric > international > organization that England is a part of, so if> you claim that just being a > member of the EU > would "peer-pressure" you to be metric, you'd have to> say the same about all > those other > organizations (The Commonwealth of Nations, etc.).> > Am I missing > something?> > --- Stephen > Humphreys <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:> > > > > Ezra,> > > > FYI: The only > mainstream party > that is more pro-metric than the current Labour lot are the> > LibDems - and > thay have no chance > in winning a general election.> > > > The Tories, who are the most likely to > turn over Brown's > government's majority, are even less> > keen (generally) on metrication. They > are also more > eurosceptic (for where the subjects> > sometimes overlap).> > > > > From: > [EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [email protected]> Subject: [USMA:40484] Re: EU> > > Council> > Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2008 12:17:57 -0800> > Gene,> > Thanks for the additional > info. I'm> > glad to > hear that the Units of > Measurement Directive (what we have been calling the > "metric> > > directive") is > not yet before the EU Council.> > Even if the Units of > Measurement Directive > is> > amended as proposed, the UK > could go much further than it has in > enforcing the primacy > of> > metric units > and widening the scope of that enforcement to > advertising and product >> > > descriptions. (But that will have to wait for another day and another > > government, I'm afraid.> > > :-(> > Ezra> > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> > > To: "U.S. Metric> > > Association" <[email protected]>> Sent: Saturday, February 23, 2008 11:55 > AM> Subject:> > > [USMA:40483] EU Council> > > > Ezra,> >> > Below are some brief excerpts > from:> >> >> > > <www.counsilium.europa.eu/showPage.asp?id=242&lang=en&mode=g>> >> > The > Council is the main> > > decision-making body of the EU.> >> > The ministers of the Member States meet > within the> > > Council...> >> > Depending on the issue on the agenda, each country will be > represented by > >> > > the minister responsible for that subject...> >> > The Council...passes > > laws, usually> > > legislating jointly with the European > > Parliament... END of Excerpts.> >> > > No currently> > > posted agenda includes the EU Metric Directive.> >> > Gene.> > ---- Original > message ---->> > > >>Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2008 18:01:11 +0000> >>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >>>>Subject:> > > [USMA:40473] Re: EU Metric Directive> >>To: "U.S. Metric Association" > <[email protected]>> >>>> > > >>My next question is pretty obvious: why does Elizabeth say that approval > > >>> >>by the Council> > > (and which council, exactly?) is "uncertain'? What does > >>that mean? When > > do they meet? > What> > are the forces in play? etc. etc.> >>> >>Anyone out there with > suitable history and > contacts> > able to drill down a > >>little further? I'd love to know!> >>> > >>Ezra> > > > > > _________________________________________________________________> > Share > what Santa brought > you> > https://www.mycooluncool.com> > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________> > Be a > better friend, newshound, and > know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. > http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ > > _________________________________________________________________ > Share what Santa brought you > https://www.mycooluncool.com ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping
