On 2011/05/24, at 08:00 , Beranger wrote: However, I would be interested to know exactly how you came to your 500ml average figure. Did you actually measure the amount delivered or are you just estimating a volume based upon the size of the head?
I bought beer in London, Oxford, and Cambridge and my method was as follows: 1 I measured the internal diameter of the glass at the top. 2 I measured the depth of the head from the rim of the glass using a pocket tape measure 3 I calculated the volume of the head in millilitres using diameter squared x pi/4 x height (when I didn't have a calculator with me I used 0.8 as an approximation for pi/4 and then redid the calculations later from my notes) 4 I then consumed the beer and the head and examined the glass for its legal markings. If the word pint was used I took this to be a metric pint as defined in the UK with a little excess for a particular glass to be legal, I took this to be 570 mL. I am aware that the legal definition for a pint in the context of beer sales is between 568.3 mL and approx 604 mL but I assumed that the beer makers and sellers would choose the lowest possible legal figure when they had the glasses made. 5 I then calculated the volume of the beer By the way, when you say: Draught beer is not sold in 570ml measures don't you mean that beer is sold in pints that are defined by the metric system as "between 568.3 mL and approx 604 mL". That is, the word pint was chosen by Maggie Thatcher to hide the fact that the UK sells beer according to metric system standards. As she trained as a chemist she would have known that. Cheers, Pat Naughtin Geelong, Australia > > See replies interspersed below > Regards > > Ber > > > --- On Sat, 21/5/11, Kilopascal <[email protected]> wrote: > > From: Kilopascal <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [USMA:50483] Re: Coffee mug > To: "Beranger" <[email protected]>, [email protected] > Date: Saturday, 21 May, 2011, 21:43 > > > > From: Beranger > Sent: Saturday, 2011-05-21 15:40 > To: [email protected] ; Kilopascal > Subject: Re: [USMA:50483] Re: Coffee mug > > Kilopascal > > There is no such law allowing a patron to demand that a glass be filled to > the rim. There is a voluntary code of practice that allows a patron to > request a top-up should he feel that his glass is not full enough, but there > is no compulsion on the barman to provide this. > > I see, I must have been mislead. I thought I heard somewhere it was a law. > So, if the barman fills a 570 mL glass to only 400 mL is he breaking the law > or is he not honouring the voluntary code of practice? > > Both. The law says that the barman must deliver correct measure. The CoP > states that he should deliver correct measure & must also offer a top-up if > asked, > > Remind me how the law works. What does the law require and where does the > voluntary code take over? > > See my answer above. However, it is impossible for a member of the public to > enforce the law except by complaining to Trading Standards, who will take a > test purchase and act on the results. Trading Standards will measure whatever > the barman delivers without asking for a top-up. > > Is It just the requirement of the law to use 570 mL glasses > > No. The requirement is to use stamped equipment. This can be acheived by > using stamped brim measures, stamped line measures or stamped "beer engines" > > The measure in use for draught beer in the UK is a pint (or certain multiples > thereof), a half-pint or a third of a pint. Draught beer is not sold in 570ml > measures > > but fill it to whatever fits your fancy and then expect the customer to > request a top-up if he feels the glass is not filled enough? Why have a > voluntary code unless the law has a loophole? > > The law currently states that the head is part of the pint. To prove short > measure, Trading Standards must show that the head was in excess of what is > commonly accepted. A 95% liquid pint has been held to be acceptable by the > courts. > > Below 95%, a publican will receive a written warning or will be prosecuted > depending upon the degree of short measure. I am not willing to discuss my > own authority's prosecution policy in detail, but have previously stated that > we would attempt to prosecute if 500ml was delivered during a test purchase > of a pint. > > I'm sure that in all fairness no pub is going to give someone 400 mL in a 570 > mL glass. Such a deliberate under fill surely would be a recipe for > customers to go elsewhere. > > Who has ever suggested that 400 ml is delivered as a pint? Pat, however, has > (IMO) incorrectly stated that 500ml is commonly delivered. He has made no > response to my question regarding his measurement method, so I can only > assume that my speculation about the inaccurate method he used has some basis > in fact > > > I would also disagree with your claim that 500g is served on the (rarer & > rarer) occasions when someone asks for a pound. You will usually be served > approx +/- 20g of the amount requested. > > > I believe I read that on metric views. Someone made a comment where some > customers were served 500 g (or some amount close) and some customers were > holding up the queue insisting the clerk reduce the amount to something > closer to 450 g. I'm sure there are some shops who will take advantage of > some customer's ignorance and serve 500 g as a means to push more product out > the door. > > As a vague generalisation, that is almost worthy of Stephen Humphreys. What > products are we talking about? Apples - where it is impossible to measure an > exact quantity? Or minced beef, where the butcher will usually deliver pretty > exact conversions of any imperial amount requested? Or cheese - where your > theory may hold some water - sometimes they deliberately cut slightly large > in the hopr that the customer will say "that's OK" > > However, even in the chesse example, I think that a 10% overmeasure would be > likely to be challenged. In addition, I would disagree with your assumption > that the reason for the overmeasure is to give a rounded metric amount. It's > just to get a slightly bigger sale. > > I'm sure you will agree that it is up to the customer to accept or reject the > amount given. > > Of course, but this has no relevance to the method of measurement used > > You also appear to be misunderstanding the way scales work. It is perfectly > possible to be served an exact pound on a metric scale - it just won't be > displayed as such - the scale will read 455g or maybe 450g or 460 g dependent > on the error on the scale. > > Just because a scale works in 5g intervals does not mean that the produce > weighed on it will also be in rounded metric amounts. It only appears that > way due to rounding. > > That I understand. I know that when a scale only can display to 5 g > intervals, the true amount can be anywhere +/- 2.5 g, even if the scale was > perfectly accurate. > > No. The error can be greater. If a store uses a Class III 6kg capacity scale > that works in 5g divivisions, the maximum error in the range MIN>>2.5kg is > one division (5g) > > This means that the scale could be within tolerance if it read 450g, 455g or > 460g with 453.59237g on the scalepan, depending on the actual error on the > scale > > > If by some slim chance the scale read 455 g and the person actually got > 453.6...... g, he or she would not know it. But by the same token even if > the scale could both resolve and display to 0.1 g, and the scale displayed > 453.6, even that isn't a pound, not by definition, it is only an > approximation (yes, close enough for most people). But to someone who hates > the metric system, would they be satisfied that they got a pound when the > scale displayed 453.6 g? Would Stephen? They would only be satisfied if the > scale read in pounds and it displayed 1lb 00oz. > > Exactly the same argument could be made regarding an old imperial scale > working in 1/8oz divisions. It could read 1lb 00oz with any weight between 15 > 7/8 oz and 1lb 00 1/8 oz, and still be within the error allowance. > > People do not expect the levels of accuracy you ascribe to them. > > However, as I have previously stated, over a metric scale, the price charged > will always be based upon the metric weight displayed and upon the price per > kilo. > > It will never be based upon the imperial weight and the price per pound. I > suspect that this is what annoys Humphreys and his ilk. > > > > Pat > > The results you claim to have witnessed fly in the face of every survey ever > conducted in the UK. The average "pint" found on survey is usually around > 540ml. > > In my local area, if Trading Standards were served a 500ml "pint", a report > would be made to the Procurator Fiscal with a recommendation to prosecute. > > The shortest measure I can recall seeing in recent years was around 518 ml - > 9% deficient (a test purchase had been made following a complaint from a > member of the public) > > However, I would be interested to know exactly how you came to your 500ml > average figure. Did you actually measure the amount delivered or are you just > estimating a volume based upon the size of the head? > > If you are just estimating, you should be aware that a stamped UK brim > measure may contain any amount between 568.3ml and approx 604ml. It is > therefore possible that a legal UK stamped pint glass can contain a full > liquid pint and a 35ml head. > > So, assuming that your 70ml of froth figure is correct, it is not > inconceivable that there is 534ml of liquid in the glass. In addition, the > froth is made up of air and beer, so there may be as much as 35ml of beer in > the 70ml of froth (depending on the style of beer) > > This means that even with a 70ml head, it is still technically possible for a > UK pint brim measure to contain a full pint, and that the 70ml head will > still usually result in a measure of more than 540ml (95%) - which has been > held by the UK courts to be an acceptable measure. > > > --- On Sat, 21/5/11, Kilopascal <[email protected]> wrote: > > From: Kilopascal <[email protected]> > Subject: [USMA:50483] Re: Coffee mug > To: [email protected], "U.S. Metric Association" > <[email protected]> > Date: Saturday, 21 May, 2011, 14:22 > > Pat, > > You are right about what you have experienced. But, the UK law does allow > the patron to demand that the glass be filled to the rim if the patron > requests, even if it means spillage and loss of froth. I'm sure in most > cases the bar keeper is only going to fill to the rim when asked to or if > they know a regular customer always insists on having the full 570 mL. Since > you were a stranger to those pubs, they didn't see fit to fill the glass to > the rim for you, whereas with Stephen, he has whined often enough they know > to fill the glass fully. Thus he can claim that he always gets his full 570 > mL (unless he is in an area where they don't know him and thus the fill to > the rim is not automatic). > > The same is true when you go to the local deli counter at the market. Most > people who don't complain will get 500 g when they ask for a pound. Those > that are known to whine will get closer to 450~460 g. Since the scales can > only resolve to the nearest 5 g, it is impossible for them to get a 454 g > pound. > > It sort of shows that the metric amount is the standard given and the patron > has to make a special request if they want something different. > > > [USMA:50483] Re: Coffee mug > > Pat Naughtin > Thu, 19 May 2011 23:29:51 -0700 > On 2011/05/20, at 10:24 , Stephen Humphreys wrote: > > > Not again!!! > > > > You are not being honest (unless it was a crap pub). > > That's where the honesty lies - informing people with the correct info.. > > > Let me repeat: > > "In my experience English pubs fill to about the 0.5 L level (500 mL) > allowing > for about 70 mL of froth to achieve the 568 mL that the English glass must > hold > in English law." > > I visited about 10 pubs in England the last time I was there. In each pub I > ordered a "pint" then measured how much beer I received -- and how much > froth. > in each case I was served very close to 500 mL of beer or half a litre. At no > time did I receive a "pint" of beer. I am also aware that the old pre-metric > measuring word, "pint" is, in fact, a metric pint as defined by UK law in > millilitres. > > I did not remonstrate with bar staff or ask them to serve me with beer that > was > overflowing the glass container with no froth on it at all. Beer is supposed > to > be served with a "head" of froth! > > Cheers, > > Pat Naughtin > Geelong, Australia > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 10.0.1375 / Virus Database: 1509/3651 - Release Date: 05/21/11 > Pat Naughtin LCAMS Author of the ebook, Metrication Leaders Guide, see http://metricationmatters.com/MetricationLeadersGuideInfo.html Hear Pat speak at: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_lshRAPvPZY PO Box 305 Belmont 3216, Geelong, Australia Phone: 61 3 5241 2008 Metric system consultant, writer, and speaker, Pat Naughtin, has helped thousands of people and hundreds of companies upgrade to the modern metric system smoothly, quickly, and so economically that they now save thousands each year when buying, processing, or selling for their businesses. Pat provides services and resources for many different trades, crafts, and professions for commercial, industrial and government metrication leaders in Asia, Europe, and in the USA. Pat's clients include the Australian Government, Google, NASA, NIST, and the metric associations of Canada, the UK, and the USA. See http://www.metricationmatters.com for more metrication information, contact Pat at [email protected] or to get the free 'Metrication matters' newsletter go to: http://www.metricationmatters.com/newsletter to subscribe.
