Dear Beranger, I have interspersed some remarks in red. On 2011/06/25, at 08:32 , Beranger wrote:
> This is all very well, apart from the fact that Pat's original contention is > completely, totally and utterly incorrect. > > Could you provide some evidence for this unsupported assertion, please? > > As a Scot, I'm no expert on English kings before 1603, but I'm pretty sure > that most of the Stuart monarchs of England after the Union of the English & > Scottish crowns were born in the UK and used English (or sometimes Latin) as > opposed to French. > > Your claim: > > "I'm pretty sure" > > is not evidence. > > Pat refers to George III as the first monarch to be "born in England and to > use English as his first language" > > True. that is what I wrote and I believe it to be true that French was the > court language even when George II was king. > > This would be true of the Hanovarian monarchs, but they only inherited the > monarchy after Anne's death in 1714. > > Again true, and although Queen Anne was born in London her court and the > nation retained the French language for measurement. In fact Queen Anne was > responsible for some refinements of the French measuring words. These > included the redefinition of the French word, gallon, as 231 cubic inches (3 > 785 mL) in 1707. Later, the English Queen Anne wine gallon of 1707 became the > gallon for the USA still retaining its original French name. > > With regard to British Kings after 1603, I know for a fact that James I & VI > was born in Edinburgh, and that Charles I was born in Dunfermline. > > I believe that Charles II was born in London. as was James II & VII. > > We then had a republic for a short time. > > After that, William of Orange was Dutch, but he was succeeded by Mary & then > by Anne, who were both born in London. > > It's only after that that the current "German" royal family took over, > continuing up to Betty Battenburg (Elizabeth II) , the current incumbent. > > French was not the court language used by any of these monarchs. > > Again, could you provide some evidence, please? My understanding is that it > didn't matter where these monarchs were born, the French language was > retained as the court language and French remained the language of > international diplomacy until the 20th century. In any case, wherever these > kings were born didn't matter, they definitely retained the French measuring > words that had come to the UK in 1066. Eventually, following the signing of > the Magna Carta, Edward I decided to build the French words permanently into > the English language by defining them. This extract is from > http://www.metricationmatters.com/docs/MetricationTimeline.pdf > > 1272 > Gradually in England, the kings and queens responded to the requirements of > the Magna Carta (see 1215). However, standards of measurement were not firmly > established until later in the 13th century, though variations (and abuses) > continued until long after that. King Edward I of England took a step forward > in 1272 when he ordered a permanent measuring stick made of iron to serve as > a master standard yardstick for the entire kingdom. This master yardstick was > called the "iron ulna", after the bone of the forearm, and it was > standardized as close to the length of a modern yard (now defined as exactly > 914.4 millimetres). > King Edward I realized that constancy and permanence were the key to any > standard. He also decreed that the foot measure should be one-third the > length of the yard, and the inch one thirty-sixth. > During Edward I's reign (1272-1307) the Ulna (or yard) and its sub- and > aggregated divisions were defined in terms of barleycorns: > It is remembered that the Iron Ulna of our Lord the King contains three feet > and no more; and the foot must contain twelve inches, measured by the correct > measure of this kind of ulna; that is to say, one thirty-sixth part (of) the > said ulna makes one inch, neither more nor less ... It is ordained that three > grains of barley, dry and round make an inch, twelve inches make a foot; > three feet make an ulna; five and a half ulna makes a perch (rod); and forty > perches in length and four perches in breadth make an acre. > The perch or rod was also used at this time. It had previously been defined > as the total length of the left feet of the first sixteen men to leave church > on Sunday morning. > 1297 > King Edward I (1239/1307) agreed to the Charter of Confirmation that > established the parliament in the UK as a representative body and it promoted > the importance of Magna Carta by declaring all judgments contrary to this > document to be null and void. This gave this line from the Magna Carta more > relevance as the 'supreme law of the land': > There shall be one measure of wine throughout our whole realm, and one > measure of ale and one measure of corn ... > King Edward I was popularly known as Longshanks because of his extraordinary > height, of 1.9 metres. > > Note that the word, yard, is not French; it appears to come from the German > word for garden. > > It appears that in redefining the French measuring words that little > consideration was given to the official decimal measurements promoted by > Alfred the Great: that is the rod of very close to 5 metres and the wand that > was very near the length of one metre. > > As an obvious example, the King James Bible is not in French. > > True, but the King James Bible was an oddity in many other ways as well. In > many ways it was a political document intended to appease puritans. A > secondary consideration was to encourage the use of the English language - > for the first time - in English churches. > > Can I suggest that misinformation & speculation of this type is an absolute > gift to the BWMA? > > You can suggest it, but I disagree with you about misinformation and > speculation. > > Cheers, > > Pat Naughtin > Geelong, Australia > [USMA:50727] French Weights and Measures Association (FWMA) > > Pat Naughtin > Thu, 23 Jun 2011 17:40:18 -0700 > Dear All, > > As you know the Royal Court of England spoke only in French from the 1066 > invasion until the late 1700s. In fact, George III (who lost the American > colonies) was the first English king to use English as his first language. > See > http://www.royal.gov.uk/HistoryoftheMonarchy/KingsandQueensoftheUnitedKingdom/TheHanoverians/GeorgeIII.aspx > where they write: > > He became heir to the throne on the death of his father in 1751, succeeding > his > grandfather, George II, in 1760. He was the third Hanoverian monarch and the > first one to be born in England and to use English as his first language. > > Naturally the weights and measures the foreign kings and their courts used > were > derived from the culture they brought with them from France to England. This > set included: le pied du Roi (later translated from pied to foot); the French > pinte (later translated to pint); and the livre (later translated to pound > with > the Italian/Latin abbreviation lb. from libra). Even later (1303) the livre > was > standardised by English traders as the avoir du pois livre that is now known > as > the avoirdupois pound. > > As these are the principle measuring words encouraged by the British Weights > and Measures Association, maybe that organisation could consider changing > their > name from the British Weights and Measures Association (BWMA) to the French > Weights and Measures Association (FWMA). > > It seems to me that this would be a more accurate description of their > activities. > > Cheers, > > Pat Naughtin LCAMS > Author of the ebook, Metrication Leaders Guide, see > http://metricationmatters.com/MetricationLeadersGuideInfo.html > Hear Pat speak at: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_lshRAPvPZY > PO Box 305 Belmont 3216, > Geelong, Australia > Phone: 61 3 5241 2008 Pat Naughtin LCAMS Author of the ebook, Metrication Leaders Guide, see http://metricationmatters.com/MetricationLeadersGuideInfo.html Hear Pat speak at: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_lshRAPvPZY PO Box 305 Belmont 3216, Geelong, Australia Phone: 61 3 5241 2008 Metric system consultant, writer, and speaker, Pat Naughtin, has helped thousands of people and hundreds of companies upgrade to the modern metric system smoothly, quickly, and so economically that they now save thousands each year when buying, processing, or selling for their businesses. Pat provides services and resources for many different trades, crafts, and professions for commercial, industrial and government metrication leaders in Asia, Europe, and in the USA. Pat's clients include the Australian Government, Google, NASA, NIST, and the metric associations of Canada, the UK, and the USA. See http://www.metricationmatters.com for more metrication information, contact Pat at [email protected] or to get the free 'Metrication matters' newsletter go to: http://www.metricationmatters.com/newsletter to subscribe.
