The 20¢ coin would be sensible. The real issue is whether it is worth changing anything (other than eliminating the penny). There is a huge installed base of vending machines that handle existing coins (and many handle bills up to $20 as well). They would have to be modified and the vending lobby would VIGOROUSLY oppose the change. That "vending lobby" would include many cities with rapid transit systems; they sell tickets via vending machine. That would pit levels of government against each other. In my mind their opposition would make more sense (being based on real costs) than the ridiculous FMI argument that has delayed the permissive-metric-only amendment to the FPLA for nine years and counting. It would be best to leave this windmill alone and focus on counterarguments to FMI. That would do a lot more for US metrication. (I should mention that we have a $2 bill, but it is much disliked, and rarely circulates.)
--- On Thu, 8/18/11, Martin Vlietstra <[email protected]> wrote: From: Martin Vlietstra <[email protected]> Subject: [USMA:50993] Re: Speaking of currency reform.... To: "U.S. Metric Association" <[email protected]> Date: Thursday, August 18, 2011, 7:17 AM May I put the cat among the pigeons? Is there a case to introduce both a $1 and a $2 coin (the $2 coin need not be twice the weight of the $1 coin) and replace the 25c coin with a 20c coin - after all you have a $20 note, not a $25 note. I could suggest a 2c coin, but there is probably a stronger case for dispensing with the 1c coin and following the Dutch pattern of rounding at the till. Your coinage (and notes) would then follow a proper decimal pattern: 1-2-5-10 (which follows the sequence for metric weights). Although I have never been to the US , I found that using the Dutch 25c coin (with no 50c coin) required more mental effort than was required for a 20c coin elsewhere. From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of John M. Steele Sent: 18 August 2011 12:04 To: U.S. Metric Association Subject: [USMA:50992] Re: Speaking of currency reform.... I'm sorry but I have to disagree. The one thing in common with metrication is Congress taking the position it must be voluntary. However, changing to dollar coins will not materially improve the simplicity of scientific and engineering calculation or improve our competitiveness on the world stage. You can obviously get all the dollar coins you want either from your bank or direct from the Mint. This is about taking paper bills from the rest of us for no clear reason. The argument that $1 bills don't last is wrong, as I gave a link to US Mint data showing a $1 lasts 42 months or 2.6X longer than a $5 bill. I have seen no one counter the data from the Mint FAQ. Does anyone have an argument they are lying? If not, proponents of the dollar coin should quit arguing the bill is short-lived and just admit they hate the rest of us having dollar bills. Where is your argument for a $5 coin? The dollar bill also outlasts the $10 and $20. Lets ban paper money entirely (many merchants refuse to accept $50 and $100 bills). I don't like to carry the dollar coin, but it does make a great parking token and theft-proof money I can leave lying in plain view in my vehicle without risk. --- On Wed, 8/17/11, Carleton MacDonald < [email protected] > wrote: From: Carleton MacDonald < [email protected] > Subject: RE: [USMA:50987] Re: Speaking of currency reform.... To: [email protected] , "'U.S. Metric Association'" <[email protected]> Date: Wednesday, August 17, 2011, 11:19 PM I hate to say it but this argument sounds much like people who oppose finishing the job of converting to metric in the USA . “We don’t want to change. We want to keep using our pounds, feet, miles, and quarts. It’s our choice and we should have that choice.” The dollar is worth less than a quarter was 50 years ago when I was a kid, but no one thought of ever making at 25 cent bill! People pretty much used coins back then; prices were low enough that most small purchases (ice cream cone, newspaper, streetcar fare, Time magazine, etc.) could be paid with coins. I do remember the Franklin 50 cent coin being widely used; it played the part the dollar coin does now (hell, the QUARTER did, really) and the coins didn’t pile up; people spent them. The problem now is really with the $1 bill. With prices being higher it is hard to pay for anything by cash without using $1 bills. So the ice cream cone that was 10 cents 50 years ago is now at least $2. Most people WILL NOT take out BOTH coins AND paper to pay for something; they pay with paper only, drop the coins in their pockets, and at night dump them all in a jar. People like me who actually spend the coins are odd birds indeed. But I like only having to go into my pocket for small purchases as opposed to horsing out my wallet. If the $1 bill were gone and we used the $1 coin, you’d find that you’d take out the coins for small purchases. If something cost $2.66 you’d take out two dollar coins, two quarters and two dimes, or maybe even throw in the odd penny so you’d get one nickel back and not four pennies. The coins wouldn’t be wearing holes in your pocket because you’d be spending them. I don’t use $1 bills. I don’t accept them in change. Every couple of weeks I go to the bank downstairs in Washington Union Station where I work and get a roll of dollar coins, $25 worth. I spend them at the doughnut shop, in parking meters (much more convenient to put in four coins and not 16), at the Costco food court, and everywhere else I spend cash. I don’t make a fuss about it; I just use them as if it were perfectly natural to do so, as it should be. Yes, I guess I’m making a point or pushing the issue; it’s the same thing we do when we tell the doctor we are 91 kg instead of 200 lb. If getting $1 bills back in change is unavoidable, I will tell the clerk that I’d prefer dollar coins and not bills. At the Amish market nearby, they’re always happy to hear that; they get them from time to time and they let the dollar coins pile up because they’re too “polite” to give them out as change – especially to women; they don’t want the customers complaining. I guess I’m the total opposite of the “throw them in a jar” type. Right now on the dresser are two $1 coins, two quarters, a dime and a penny. Other than a stash of $20 in dollar coins still in the wrapper (I’ve used some and will use more tomorrow), that’s all the coins I own in the WORLD. No jar! They are constantly being spent. Get rid of the $1 bill and the overstock of the $1 coin goes away within months, as the paper bills wear out and are replaced with coins. Congress is wasting time and money trying to make the coins appealing when the obvious solution is completely ignored. No other country has a coin and a bill in the same denomination; we are idiots. How does this relate to the topic of the list? The stubbornness of Congress in refusing to stop printing the $1 bill comes from the exact same mindset that won’t convert to metric. All they care about are constituents with money (such as the Crane Paper Company that supplies the stock for the banknotes; the $1 bill is half the output) and the complainers, or whiners, who they are afraid will vote them out of office. They hear the complaining and think those people are representative of everyone (since people who like what they are doing don’t write, only those that do not). “You changed something, why did you change something, I don’t like change, don’t change anything, change is scary, change is hard, I’m going to remember this at the next election.” Substitute “metric conversion” for “dollar coins” and it’s really the exact same thing. Carleton From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of John M. Steele Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2011 19:59 To: U.S. Metric Association Subject: [USMA:50987] Re: Speaking of currency reform.... Agreed. And if people find them hard to obtain at banks, the Mint offers free shipping and no surcharge on multiples of $250. (Due to abuse on credit card purchases for points, they don't accept credit cards anymore. Pay by check, money order or wire transfer). Get all the coin you want; let those of us who prefer paper bills have them. As the $1 bill lasts longer than $5, $10, and $20 bills, that arguement for coins falls apart unless you replace ALL the short-lived bills. Mint Free Shipping program on $250 orders: (Note they want you to order, they have nearly 10000 t of them in the basement already with more on the way) http://catalog.usmint.gov/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/CategoryDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10001&catalogId=10001&identifier=8100 --- On Wed, 8/17/11, Stanislav Jakuba <[email protected]> wrote: From: Stanislav Jakuba <[email protected]> Subject: [USMA:50985] Re: Speaking of currency reform.... To: "U.S. Metric Association" <[email protected]> Cc: "U.S. Metric Association" <[email protected]> Date: Wednesday, August 17, 2011, 7:30 PM Harry, I'd be darned if I sign. The dollar coin has been about for decades. Anyone who wants to have them has them and can pay with them. I am glad I am in a democracy where the majority preference has still been the rule, at least on this issue. The majority spoke: it loves paper money. The notion that printing the paper is more wasteful vs. melting and coining metal that requires train loads to destribute and produces holes in ones trousers is, apparently, not necessarily true. Think of the extra gasoline the world burns in cars accelerating and braking the extra mass in coins people carry with them. BTW, I love the fact, that unlike anywhere else, in the US I work with just 3 (three!) different coins: quarter, dime and nickel. I need to carry only four or five coins with me. I do not take pennies - leave them in the small jars that just about every cashier has. Often the casheir reciprocally pulls out some when I might need them and "pays" for me. But, let me be clear, I do bend down for a penny when I see one on the ground (it brings luck in the U.S. !); then I drop in into one of those litle jars. Stan J. On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 5:51 PM, Harry Wyeth <[email protected]> wrote: OK, this is somewhat off topic, but I didn't start it. Here is something I sent to friends, which speaks for itself. Sign on if you wish--I hope you will. I guess I am incorrect on rounding "up" of prices in Australia . I never noticed on way or the other. I have wondered about the practice in China . Anyone know? HARRY WYETH -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Modernize American coinage/currency Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2011 18:50:06 -0700 From: Harry Wyeth <[email protected]> To: undisclosed-recipients:; Friends This is a new project. MoveOn.org asked readers to come up with ideas for progressive change. The one below is mine. I have no idea how this progresses, but if you agree with it, I would appreciate your adding your "signature". This is an idea that comes up from time to time, and would indeed make life a bit simpler for everyone. During our recent trip to Australia , we noticed the lack of pennies and the automatic rounding up or down of prices at stores to the nearest nickel. Same thing happens in Europe , and nowhere are there one dollar bills, which wear out rapidly and have to be continually printed. It will be interesting to see if this can accumulate a real number of signatures. The message below is the "canned" one that is automatically prepared by MoveOn. Thanks. HARRY Hi, American coinage and currency needs to be up to standards of the rest of the developed world. We need to eliminate pennies and one dollar bills, saving millions in mint and printing costs. The United States is almost alone in bothering with such small change, and at great cost to taxpayers. So I created a petition to The United States House of Representatives, The United States Senate and President Barack Obama, which says: "Stop the production of dollar bills and pennies, substituting only five dollar notes and above, and dollar coins and nickels, dimes, and quarters." Will you sign this petition? Click here: http://signon.org/sign/modernize-american-coinagecu?source=c.em.mt&r_by=417290 Thanks!
