your pretty close there Pete...........but as far as "Classic" proportions go, 
a tip and or tag should take up ONLY the space between both "points." Betwen 
the point of the barb and the point of the hook. THAT, and ONLY THAT is where 
tip and or tag go. Between the points, PERIOD! But hey.........that stuff is 
from 150 yrs. ago...........when doin' artistic flies.............anything 

Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2009 20:41:47 -0400
Subject: [VFB] Re: ok update on the ronn lucas sr lessons

On Fri, Oct 30, 2009 at 5:41 PM, <> wrote:
>let me know what you all think so say what you would like and be totally 
>honest pls

Be totally honest? We're fishermen, come on, that's difficult.  But let me tell 
you about that hundred-trout day, all caught on a single size 34 hook ...;)

If you are serious and want serious advice, let me start by saying I like the 
fly exactly as it is - and for the 'fish- catching' abilities, I'd be surprised 
if a fish turned up its nose (do trout have noses?) at this fly!  If you're 
looking for advice for the 'classic proportions', I'll give that to follow, but 
only with the disclaimer that I don't know who came up with these "rules" and 
that they take the innovation and, essentially, the fun out of the whole 
thing... enough beating round the bush... the body is just the slightest 
smidgen of a bit too far rearward.  You want the tag to stop above the tip of 
the point of the hook of the fly... don't confuse the point with the barb, as I 
did for the longest time.  The peacock tail is (again, if you're seeking 
'classic' convention) to start above the space right prior to the hook point 
(where the floss meets up with the tag) and extend a length of 2/3rds the 
length of the shank (so two thirds of the distance from where the hook eye 
meets the shank to the point above the point) That's if you're tying for 
'classic proportions' and not 'hey, it looks nice, and it'll catch fish'.  The 
floss work is great - spot on!  in theory the rib should have 5 turns from tag 
to (under the thorax) the wing seating... not sure I buy it, but it is an 
arbitrary target that keeps me from over-ribbing when I tie, so I thought I'd 
pass that on.  Someone once told me at a show that the width (height?) of the 
tail should match the hook gap, and that the thorax (the peacock just behind 
the wing) should be that thick as well.  I'm not sure I buy that whole 
statement, or that it is 'classic' proportion, but it really got me tying 
fuller thoraxes of good proportions, to shoot for such a thick thorax and fall 
short, only to equal the thickness of what I wanted.  Sounds silly, but I 
seriously took a good half a year of so, when I first started, before realizing 
that you can use more than one piece of herl to tie a thorax... I know, not the 
brightest bulb in the lighting section... The wing is a little full for MY 
tastes, but it is angled at a decent angle... maybe a TAD less incline, but 
that's also a personal tastes thing.  Yeah, I'll unfortunately agree with Mark, 
and again I emphasize that if you are tying for fun or fishing, this is all 
hogwash anyhow - but if you want to tie to "classic" proportions, you want to 
start the thorax 3 hook-eye-widths (if you look at the hook eye and measure 
only the horizontal width - with the eye diagonal like in your photo - and then 
copy that 3 times, starting at where the shank meets the eye and moving towards 
the tail), that;s where the thorax should start - it feels too soon when tying, 
for me it's because I like the look and feel of tying a grandiose body, but 
it's just about right.  So start the thorax about 3 hook eyes back, wrap two of 
those three with thorax, give or take.  Mount the wing and hackle, wrap, tie 
off, etc, and then finish the head with as few wraps as possible - a trick I 
learned is that you use 3 wraps for the wing - that's it - and 2 for the hackle 
- that's it.  Then when you go to tie the head, you're essentially adding the 
wraps that you wanted to add to secure the wing and hackle in the first place.  
All of this to say, yeah, the head is kinda crowded.  I've said it before - is 
it "wrong"? not a chance.  But if you are seeking "classic" proportions, yeah, 
it is a bit crowded.  All in all, a really great tie!  Personally, I tie 
realistics (some call it "sculpting" and not "tying", so I'll throw that 
disclaimer out there), so can be over-the-top when it comes to proportions... 
but in the same breath I say that I also tie flies to fish with - for those, 
proportions be darned!  If it catches fish, who cares?  We can all offer tips 
and suggestions, but in the end, it is ultimately your opinion of it (or a 
fish's, if you choose to wet the fly) that truly matters.
Just my 2 cents worth,

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