Bob, The one thing you need to remember is that Cree coloration in itself is a variant. Therefore, Cree saddles may have not only the cree pattern, but the not-so-great-cree, the spot-in-the-middle-variant, the heavily chevroned Cree, the odd-ball variant patterns, and whole or partial hackles that are throwbacks to the parent genes, usually being a solid furnace or brown. Even on the Platinum and Gold Cree saddles that I have, a small percentage of the feathers are totally or partially brown. What is strange is the way a single feather can go from Cree to brown and back to Cree again. This feature is not as pronounced or even absent on the necks, whereas it is common and normal on saddles. The necks are more difficult to create the dark bars in the tiny neck feathers, as these tend to come out just a bar-ginger. I do have some that are perfect crees up to the eyelids, though. What you are looking for in selecting a keepsake-quality cree saddle is the highest percentage of high-quality Cree coloration that you can find. Even Signature Platinum Cree Saddles will have some brown hackles throughout.
And just having the 3 colors does not make the hackle a cree. A black badger center with ginger and cream bars outside of the badger would not be a cree hackle, but it would be a beautiful variant. Hope I answered you question. DonO ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Haering" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Friday, November 29, 2002 10:16 AM Subject: Re: [VFB] More on Cree 101, Part B > Ok DonO I have a question for you. I have a Whiting Barred Dark Ginger > Variant cape. Alot of the feathers are Cree in color. Black, Dark Ginger & > White on each barb. Also there a furnace hackles on it. So how did this > bird come about? Only the first inch of the cape by the neck are barred > ginger. Have you ever seen a cape like this? > > BobH > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Don Ordes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Friday, November 29, 2002 12:10 PM > Subject: Re: [VFB] More on Cree 101, Part B > > > > Very good, Allen. You may have the podium. > > SO there! Del! > > > > And if you breed the ABC to another ABC or any AA, BB, etc, it will break > > down into the AA's, BB's, BC's, etc., since these are the dominant genes. > > > > DonO > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Allan Fish" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Sent: Friday, November 29, 2002 9:28 AM > > Subject: Re: [VFB] More on Cree > > > > > > > Del, > > > > > > -You asked: > > > " So what makes Cree so valuable is that it is a genetic freak? > > > (Rarity) And that it can't breed true?" > > > > > > Re-read Don's letter. This isn't breeding A with B with C to get ABC > > (cree). > > > It's breeding A with B to get AA, BB and AB. Then when you bread AB > with > > > C, you will STILL get AA, BB, CC, AB, AC, BC, and the OCCASIONAL ABC. > > > > > > I'm no geneticist but that's a little of what I think I remember (and > > > memory at my age is unreliable) from 1956 zoology class. > > > > > > You also stated, "Seems to me that if we can clone sheep, goats, and > pigs, > > > we should be able to get a rooster to breed true Cree." > > > > > > You're right. We COULD. But do you have a spare 20 million or 3 > billion > > > or whatever dollars to do the genetic cloning? 'Tain't cheep (typo > > > intentional). Would you like to spend $500,000 per neck instead of > $500? > > > > > > In the meantime, I'll look at Don's pictures and just absolutely envy > him > > > his source. > > > > > > Allan > > > > > > Don's epistle on Chickenbreeding 101 (don't let the rooster see this): > > > > > > >During the last discussion on Cree hackle coloration, a few questions > > came > > > >up that I didn't get a chance to answer. I'll do that now. Remember > > that > > > >Cree hackles have 3 bands of color- black, tan or ginger, and cream in > a > > > >grizzly-type pattern, preferrably not chevroned, with each barb having > > all > > > >three colors on it. > > > > > > > >It takes 2 generations to produce Cree, with 26 months from first > > breeding > > > >to final product. > > > >It involves a 3-way cross. The initial cross-mating is between a > grizzly > > > >and a brown, either way. Out of this mating comes 'grizzly variants', > > which > > > >is a darker grizzly with some badger and furnace feathers mixed in. It > > > >takes about 13 months from breeding to the time a grizzly variant > roosted > > > >can be selected (carefully) as the next breeder stock. These selected > > > >grizzly variant roosters are then crossed with selected basic brown > hens, > > > >and sometimes cream or black, as these too have the correct genes. > This > > > >results in a small yeild of Cree roosters, as true high quality Cree > > > >coloration is seen in only a small fraction of this brood- the others > > being > > > >variants or poorly marked Cree. Then they must be graded, with no > > > >guarantees of silver, golds, or platinums even being in the batch. So > > the > > > >final well-colored high grade Cree rooster is a rarity and it is this > > > >scarcity that makes them so valuable, along with the fact that it's so > > > >beautiful. The Cree roosters are also a dead-end and must all be > > harvested, > > > >as the Cree coloration does not breed true. So in order to have a > > > >consistent yeild of Cree pelts, the breedings are overlapping and > > > >continuous. Another thing to be considered is Cree necks versus Cree > > > >saddles. A bird yeilding a Platinum neck may yeild only a bronze > saddle, > > > >and vise versa. > > > > > > > >Cree is a very small percentage of what Whiting breeds every year, but > > the > > > >harvest still generates between 300 to 500 Cree necks and saddles per > > year. > > > >With 1000's of shops and pro tiers ordering cree and on the waiting > list, > > > >it's not surprising it's in short supply. Whiting has a program to get > > them > > > >out equally to all their customers, but Tom also donates many of them > to > > > >fund-raising auctions. I auctioned off a donated, framed Signature > > Platinum > > > >Cree Neck and Saddle for a river project here, and it brought in > $815.00. > > > > > > > >Tom is now selling and donating mounted platinum grade Cree roosters. > > These > > > >have fetched as high as $1200 at auction. I have my personal one on > > display > > > >at the local fly shop and they tell me they've been offered $1250 for > it. > > > >If anyone wants to see a picture of Mr. McCreedy, let me know and I'll > > email > > > >a photo of him. > > > > > > > >Ever wonder how a grizzly feather grows out white, then black, then > white > > > >again, continuing in bands- up to 18" long on supersaddle hackles? > > Stay > > > >tuned for Poultry Genetics 102. > > > > > > > >DonO > > > > > > > > > > > > Allan Fish > > > Greenwood, IN > > > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > > > >
