I'm not saying we need to unionize. I'm saying that if you get close enough to the MSM the issue will come up and it would be good for us to talk it through in advance of the event.

Jan

--
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http://blog.urbanartadventures.com - sound
http://the-hold.blogspot.com - poetry
http://dagnyhemingway.blogspot.com - machinima
http://vlogpresskit.blogspot.com - media
.

On Jul 14, 2006, at 8:10 AM, Heath wrote:

<x-tad-smaller>I'm all for working together as a team, I'm all for collabration, I'm </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> all for pooling resouces to futher reach an audience.....what I am </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> not sure about is wheather we need to "unionize".......not because I </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> am for or against unions, it's just that.......I think we are talking </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> he cart before the horse here......because let's really look at the </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> issue from a feasiblility standpoint......if "vloggers" </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> unionize....and when you become a part of a union there are rules and </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> regulations.....what is the critiera? Do I need to have a 3 person </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> crew to belong? 5, what about the "mom" in Idaho that just likes to </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> film her kids and put it on the internet? Where does she fit </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> in?........</x-tad-smaller>

<x-tad-smaller> This kind of conversation is almost impossible to have on a message </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> board because instead of talking "issues" what ends up happening is </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> that you divide into "camps" either for or against unions in </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> general.....then the conversation turns into "politics" where in </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> general no one can completly agree on anything.....generaly </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> speaking.....</x-tad-smaller>

<x-tad-smaller> Personaly I would much rather work together to build vlogging into </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> something the world has never seen than just to focus on one </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> aspect.....not that I don't have hopes and dreams......but I hope I </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> can be creative, successful and still have fun and maybe get paid to </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> do something I have always wanted to do......It's the "American" </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> dream....right?</x-tad-smaller>

<x-tad-smaller> Heath - The Batman Geek</x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller>http://batmangeek7.</x-tad-smaller><x-tad-smaller>blogspot.com</x-tad-smaller>

<x-tad-smaller> --- In </x-tad-smaller><x-tad-smaller>videoblogging@</x-tad-smaller><x-tad-smaller>yahoogroups.com, "Jan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:</x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> ></x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > Odd, you say? A lot of the most successful among us - the </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> most "seen" and publicized are those who work as teams. Most teams </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> small, other teams larger. Those who work in teams, please raise </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> your hands. </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > Some folks here want to grow. It's part of human nature to want to </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> grow (tho for the life of me I can't figure out why that has to </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> translate into business as well, but that's another thread in another </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> list).</x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > If we keep growing, we're gonna bump bellies with the MSM and MSM </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> means unions. Or not. Perhaps we have a chance to decide how it goes.</x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > We're actors, technicians, directors, editors, and production </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> companies. There's no established place in the union world for what </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> we do. When the intersection comes, we should aim for the Writers' </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> Guild, DGA and SAG, three of the best. If not there, then the </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> cinematographers' union. Or stay out of it altogether by focusing on </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> the production company angle.</x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > Now born, I predict this thread will raise its head every six </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> months just like the naming debate.</x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > I'm not sure I'd be happy farming out sound, camera and editing to </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> others. There's really no need to farm it out just because it's now </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> a "show". Well, I would certainly like to share editing and technical </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> stuff :)</x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > Jan</x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > -- </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > "It isn't done alone. Pay more." </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > </x-tad-smaller><x-tad-smaller>http://fauxpress.</x-tad-smaller><x-tad-smaller>blogspot.com - movement</x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > </x-tad-smaller><x-tad-smaller>http://dagnyhemingw</x-tad-smaller><x-tad-smaller>ay.blogspot.com - machinima</x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > </x-tad-smaller><x-tad-smaller>http://vlogpresskit</x-tad-smaller><x-tad-smaller>.blogspot.com - media</x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > </x-tad-smaller><x-tad-smaller>http://blog.</x-tad-smaller><x-tad-smaller>urbanartadventures.com - literature</x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > </x-tad-smaller><x-tad-smaller>http://the-hold.</x-tad-smaller><x-tad-smaller>blogspot.com - art</x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller>http://homepage.</x-tad-smaller><x-tad-smaller>mac.com/janmclaughlin/loveletter/iMovieTheater26.html </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> - filmmaker</x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > ----- Original Message ----- </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > From: Heath </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > To: </x-tad-smaller><x-tad-smaller>videoblogging@</x-tad-smaller><x-tad-smaller>yahoogroups.com </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > Sent: Thursday, July 13, 2006 2:46 PM</x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > Subject: Videobloggers United! (Re: [videoblogging] Re: An </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> unconventional path to convent</x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > This whole thread is a little odd......no make that very </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > odd......what vlogger has a crew, production studio, employees, </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > etc.....what vlogger needs to even think about this kind of </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> stuff? </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > Looking toward the future?......you create a hit "show" someone </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > offers you money to make the "show" full time.....you are not </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> going </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > to be doing everything anymore, they will have a sound guy, a </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> editing </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > guy etc.....even if they don't if you think the money is </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > fair.....seriously I don't understand this thread......at least </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> not </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > as far as vloggers go.......</x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > Now do I think that it would be good for vloggers to "band" </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> together </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > to help out on promotion, advertising posibilites, </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> etc....sure....if </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > anyone interested in that let me know, THAT sounds </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> interesting.......</x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > Heath - Batman Geek</x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > </x-tad-smaller><x-tad-smaller>http://batmangeek7.</x-tad-smaller><x-tad-smaller>blogspot.com</x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > --- In </x-tad-smaller><x-tad-smaller>videoblogging@</x-tad-smaller><x-tad-smaller>yahoogroups.com, "Casey McKinnon" </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > <caseymckinnon@> wrote:</x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > ></x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > > Well, that's great Bill... but remember, we're talking about</x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > > videoblogging here. I don't know about the wonderful U. S. of </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> A., </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > but</x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > > there are now laws in Canada to protect employees on various </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> issues </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > in</x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > > the workplace and there is not much of a need for unions </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> anymore. </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > > </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > > Most importantly, to get back to the REAL conversation... why </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> do you</x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > > think unions should carry on to vlogging? Here we have the</x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > > opportunity to cut out the gatekeeper (whether that be the FCC </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > hounds,</x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > > a corporation or a union)... so do you really think vlogging is </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> a </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > good</x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > > place to start a union?</x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > > </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > > UNITE don't unionize...</x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > > Casey</x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > > </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > > ---</x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > > Galacticast ~ Sci-Fi Lo-Fi</x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > > </x-tad-smaller><x-tad-smaller>http://www.galactic</x-tad-smaller><x-tad-smaller>ast.com/ </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > > </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > > </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > > --- In </x-tad-smaller><x-tad-smaller>videoblogging@</x-tad-smaller><x-tad-smaller>yahoogroups.com, "Bill Streeter" <bill@> </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> wrote:</x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > > ></x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > > > Sorry I gotta ;)</x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > > > </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > > > Yes that's true. And they also organized unions and fought </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> for </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > their </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > > > rights when they were taken advantage of. The reason there is </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> a </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > > > large middle class in America today is because unions fought </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> for </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > > > good wages and benefits for eveyone.</x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > > > </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > > > Bill Streeter</x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > > > LO-FI SAINT LOUIS</x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > > > www.lofistl.com</x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > > > </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > > > --- In </x-tad-smaller><x-tad-smaller>videoblogging@</x-tad-smaller><x-tad-smaller>yahoogroups.com, "Casey McKinnon" </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > > > <caseymckinnon@> wrote:</x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > > > ></x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > > > > I'm not going to respond to your point by point responses </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> since </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > > > this</x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > > > > is not a conversation I'm particularly interested in. I'm </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > simply</x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > > > > trying to say that I believe in the power of the the </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> individual </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > to </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > > > get</x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > > > > what they deserve for working hard. Is this not what </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> America </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > was</x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > > > > founded upon? Boatloads of immigrants who worked their </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> hands </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > to </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > > > the</x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > > > > bone to create a bright future for themselves and their </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > families?</x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > > > > (N.B. That was a rhetorical question... please, Bill, don't </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > bother</x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > > > > trying to answer it).</x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > > > > </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > > > > Casey</x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > > > > </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > > > > ---</x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > > > > Galacticast ~ Sci-Fi Lo-Fi</x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > > > > </x-tad-smaller><x-tad-smaller>http://www.galactic</x-tad-smaller><x-tad-smaller>ast.com/</x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > > > > </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > > > > </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > > > > --- In </x-tad-smaller><x-tad-smaller>videoblogging@</x-tad-smaller><x-tad-smaller>yahoogroups.com, "Bill Streeter" </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> <bill@> </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > > > wrote:</x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > > > > ></x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > > > > > First: the purpose of unions is not to protect their </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> members </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > for </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > > > > > slacking off. And the article didn't say that the workers </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> in </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > > > > > question were slacking off. Only that they had been </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> accused </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > of </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > > > it. </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > > > > > Maybe they were but it's hard to know from that article </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> what </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > the </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > > > > > real story was. I'm sure there are tons of stories that I </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > could </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > > > find </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > > > > > where unions protected their members from abuse from </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> their </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > > > employers </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > > > > > or got better pay and benefits for them. </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > > > > > </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > > > > > Second: are there bad unions? Sure there are. But there </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> are </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > also </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > > > bad </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > > > > > cops, firemen, doctors, lawyers, vloggers, and </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> governments. </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > But </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > > > that </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > > > > > doesn't mean that we shouldn't have any of those things </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> just </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > > > because </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > > > > > some of them are bad.</x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > > > > > </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > > > > > Third: Jello Biafra is pro-union. </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > > > > > </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > > > > > Bill Streeter</x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > > > > > LO-FI SAINT LOUIS</x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > > > > > www.lofistl.com</x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > > > > > </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > > > > > </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > > > > > </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > > > > > --- In </x-tad-smaller><x-tad-smaller>videoblogging@</x-tad-smaller><x-tad-smaller>yahoogroups.com, "Casey McKinnon" </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > > > > > <caseymckinnon@> wrote:</x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > > > > > ></x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > > > > > > Gee Bill, thanks... I must be the only 'fascist' in the </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > world </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > > > who</x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > > > > > > supports the injust struggle of Josh Wolf!</x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > > > > > > </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > > > > > > By "survival of the fittest" I meant- if you work hard </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> at </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > your </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > > > job,</x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > > > > > > then you deserve to be there... if not, there should be </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> no </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > > > reason </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > > > > > to</x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > > > > > > fire you. Unfortunately, some unions are so protected </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> that </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > > > people</x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > > > > > > like in the aforementioned article get to keep their </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> jobs </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > even </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > > > > > though</x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > > > > > > they only work 1 hour out of a 9-hour shift. Is that </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> fair </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > to </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > > > their</x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > > > > > > employer? No. Is that fair to the rest of us who work </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > during </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > > > all </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > > > > > the</x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > > > > > > hours of our job? No.</x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > > > > > > </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > > > > > > Perhaps if you had read that article I linked earlier </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> you </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > > > would </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > > > > > have</x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > > > > > > seen what I was talking about.</x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > > > > > > </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > > > > > > Signed,</x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > > > > > > Casey, About As Facsist as Jello Biafra</x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > > > > > ></x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > > > > ></x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > > > ></x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > > ></x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller> > ></x-tad-smaller>
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