I think the key is that what Carter was talking about (i'm putting words in his mouth here) was choosing a model for conversations between people, and I guess he particularly mentioned video comments. Looking at the way they do it in crowdabout, as a back & forth thing, with audio video and text all part of the same block, they've chosen a very different model from the YouTube thing, which is very much more a hit&run text comment thing, with a tacked on videocomment thing encouraging a short attention span, often used by people trying to get views from more popular sites, and less about conversations. (in my limited experience). there seem to be more comments on YouTube than there are on most standalone vlogs - which is great. whether it's a conversation and a lasting connection is another matter. someone more experienced in building YouTube relationships should comment. (Only there aren't any here, because they think we hate them... lol)
On 7 Mar 2007, at 20:31, David King wrote: Carter (I think) said: > But if I want to have conversations using video content as the > starting point, I wouldn't think of YouTube. Help me out here - why is it an either/or thing with using Youtube for conversations? I'm not getting that. Because Youtube works basically the same as any other video hosting service - you can still embed your youtube videos on your real blog, and basically ignore the youtube part of it. You still get your videoblog's rss feed, and you still get your videoblog's comments... Other than the video ownership thing and downloading, what's the diff? david So you can still do rss On 3/7/07, Steve Watkins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Cheers. I think I still use the hammer too much myself, even though I > have other tools available! > > Youtube was not the obvious candidate in my mind when talking about > video conversations here in the past, but as they have a critical mass > of users, and at some point added the video responses feature, it was > the first big instance Id seen of this stuff actually happening. > > Forums/messageboards were where I cut my net communications teeth in > text, and so Ive ocasionally waffled here about how I wanted to see > video fused with the messageboard way of things. I wondered how it > would be done, whether people would actually use it. Im still > wondering because things havent reached that stage yet, but at least > there are a few services out there such as yours, and youtube has at > least stuck its toe into the water. > > Anyway I would like to think that there'd have been more people > joining in this conversation if it were happenign a year or 2 ago, I > dunoo, it seems harder to have a long conversation about what features > people dream of these days, perhaps because people basic needs are > already satisfied. All the same I hope there are actually a mass of > people passionately excited about all these sorts of alternative & > extra uses for video on the net. I like shows and everything else > thats happening but I yearn for the days when there was a chance that > any day you coudl logon and find some individual has created some > funky tool, that whilst primitive shows the potential of the future. > It felt like there were no frontiers, now much talk seems to centre > around re-crossing the frontiers that the mass media previously filled > with concrete, but I fear far too much replication of TV and the old > ways, leading to mothing different enough to truly stir my passions. > > Anyway I definately agree with others that its pretty essential that > your comment system be built into the embedded player. > > Cheers > > Steve Elbows > --- In [email protected] <videoblogging% 40yahoogroups.com>, > "caroosky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > Steve, > > Great observations, especially the fact that we are each experts in > > finding differences. > > > > I'm sure you've heard the phrase, "If the only tool you have in your > > kit is a hammer, every problem you encounter starts to look like a > nail." > > > > As someone spending a great deal of time thinking about how to build > > social tools, I'm perhaps all too quick to criticize YouTube's hammer > > (in this case, their comment feature). In doing this, I'm not about > > to criticize content creators who use YouTube for what it does best: > > getting video up on the web and available to a massively large > > potential audience. I put things on YouTube when that is my goal. > > When I want to have more control over my files, and need to use the > > content in many different ways, I've found blip.tv to be an > > indispensible tool. > > > > But if I want to have conversations using video content as the > > starting point, I wouldn't think of YouTube. This is partly because > > of an admittedly snobbish opinion of the quality of conversation > > taking place there, but it's also because I don't think the commenting > > system they have deployed is good for much else beyond the quick > > drive-by style comment. This snobbery does not extend to content > > creators, though. > > > > And while I'm making admissions, I will additionally confess that I am > > wildly idealistic about how our collective community of content > > creators can mold and shape the fabric of the internet, as well as the > > discussions taking place not only in this medium, but offline as well. > > But as a builder of tools, I try (although I probably don't > > always succeed) to just build something cool, and then let others tell > > me how they prefer to use it. I am often surprised to learn the ways > > that people are using a tool for an advantage I never would have > > imagined in a hundred years. The creativity of others is inspiring, > > to say the least. > > > > And much of that inspiration is viewable on YouTube. > > > > > > Best, > > Carter Harkins > > http://crowdabout.us > > > > > > --- In [email protected] <videoblogging% 40yahoogroups.com>, > "Steve Watkins" <steve@> wrote: > > > > > > There was some talk in this group about youtuber's that I thought was > > > a bit snobbish a while ago, because it made me rant, but it was > > > probably only mild and it can be hard to seperate criticism of the > > > service with those using it sometimes. > > > > > > But on a certain level I would not be surprised if the 'brand > > > repputation' of youtube can heavily influence the reputation of > > > someone posting there. I could forsee plenty of exceptions, a show > > > that gets enough attention will be talked about in terms of itself, > > > that its on youtube is incidental. And this just re-inforces the fact > > > that one off clips, copyrighted stuff, other popular 'viral' videos > > > without a strong identity of their own are what will link most > > > strongly to the word 'youtube'. > > > > > > If there is any snobbishness around, I suppose its bourn from some > > > peoples high expectations and ideals about what videoblogging would be > > > used for. What I could describe as the 'liberal intellectual' wing > > > could understandably make such noises sometimes. Reminds me of the old > > > days of British broadcast television... > > > > > > First there was the BBC, which was (and remains) very paternalistic. > > > Lots of corporate agenda's focussed on their role in society as a > > > public service, and lots of intellectual thinking on how the medium > > > could be used for the masses to better themselves. Resulting in lots > > > of high-brow programming that could be a bit stuffy. > > > > > > Then along came the first commercial channel, ITV, which didnt mind > > > putting on lots of cheap popular entertainment, which got very high > > > viewing figures, gave a lot of people what they wanted, but was > > > regarded by the aforementioned BBC patriarch's as 'vulgar'. > > > > > > I guess its not a new phenomenon, and 'class' still matters, > > > unfortunately, no matter if everyone pretends it doesnt mean anything > > > anymore. vlogtellectuals vs youtube, bbc vs itv, music hall vs opera > > > and stuff like that. > > > > > > Plus humans are dead good at noticing differences. What seperates us, > > > why are they different, they seem like a different tribe. Even > > > something like using webcams as the norm rather than DV cams can > > > create a funny sort of divide and noticable difference. I have to be > > > careful here too because class may play a role in that - for poorer > > > humans, webcams are a lot more accessible. > > > > > > Anyway I just cant use the word youtube as one blanket description for > > > content type anymore. There seems to be 3 or 4 very different ways of > > > using youtube. Much of the actual community/social aspect of it seemed > > > extremely similar to social networking sites, with the same age bias > > > and some underlying sense of a lot of youthful energy , directed at > > > the sorts of things young people focus on. So I was extremely happy o > > > see how popular that old uk bloke is on there, geriatric1927 or > > > whatever his handle is. Yes there are quite a lot of people past their > > > teens and 20's on there, but Im sure age is one imbalance that has a > > > marked effect on youtube, its certainly responsible for many of the > > > awful text comments. > > > > > > Cheers > > > > > > Steve Elbows > > > > > > --- In [email protected]<videoblogging% 40yahoogroups.com>, > "Bill Cammack" <BillCammack@> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > --- [EMAIL PROTECTED]<videoblogging% 40yahoogroups.com>, > "Mark Day" <markdaycomedy@> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Q: Why are videobloggers like mainstream media executives? > > > > > > > > > > A: They both look down on people who post videos on YouTube. > > > > > > > > > > Actually, that's unfair. To mainstream media executives (ba - > dum - > > > > bing!) > > > > > > > > > > It's funny, as we like to say in comedy, because it's true. > > > > > > > > > > Just some food for thought. > > > > > > > > > > Cheers > > > > > > > > > > Mark Day > > > > > http://markdaycomedy.blip.tv > > > > > http://www.youtube.com/markdaycomedy > > > > > http://www.myspace.com/markday > > > > > > > > > > > > For the most part, I agree with your generalization. Of course > > > > generalizations don't apply to everyone and perhaps not even most > > > > people, though one could gather from the conversations that go on in > > > > this group that you would be correct. > > > > > > > > YouTube is a vehicle... an arena. Nothing more and nothing less. > > > > There are people that have technical issues with YT and complain > that > > > > they're a closed environment. That really doesn't have anything > to do > > > > with the posters, because it's not their choice. They're not the > > > > management. YouTube just happens to be an easy way to put video on > > > > the internet and distribute that video to a lot of people, > practically > > > > immediately, and TOTALLY for free (assuming you already have the > > > > computer equipment / camera). > > > > > > > > Unfortunately, the same thing that makes YT easy to get involved > with > > > > makes it a source of endless buffoonery. The signal/noise ratio is > > > > outlandish. Unfortunately for the prospect of YT being 'accepted' > > > > outside of its own walls (not that it needs acceptance at all), > > > > there's so much garbage on it that it's not likely that the casual > > > > observer coming into contact with YT by accident is going to see > > > > something that endears them to the site. Well... Unless you > count the > > > > fact that there' so much pirated material on YT, but that's not what > > > > this discussion is about. > > > > > > > > Hopefully, with the successes of "shows" like Lonelygirl15 and > > > > LisaNova, the YT environment will evolve into more than sending > video > > > > chats back and forth and making comments about them. I think > that's a > > > > really valuable use for YT, but the opportunity is there for the > same > > > > people to apply themselves creatively and develop their abilities at > > > > broadcasting and communication, if that's what their goals are. For > > > > some people, it's just easier to make videos and watch them online > > > > than go to the mall and meet people, so that's what they do. > > > > > > > > Yes, there are people developing characters and creating > situations to > > > > portray them in and making up comedy skits and stop-motion > videos and > > > > all kinds of interesting, intelligent, progressive and VERY TALENTED > > > > stuff. Unfortunately, there's no way to find those except for > trial & > > > > error. In 'defending' what's creative about YT, you also have to > > > > defend what isn't creative, because there's no distinction. > There are > > > > director accounts, but that doesn't mean that those channels > have been > > > > held to any standard of quality, content-wise or > > > > production-value-wise. It's like saying someone's a good basketball > > > > player because they're on the varsity team, but you don't > mention that > > > > they ride the bench and never set foot on the basketball court. :) > > > > They get to wear the jacket, though. Everyone on YT is wearing the > > > > same jacket. > > > > > > > > Meanwhile, you have people learning to put video on the internet out > > > > in the wild. No walled garden. No guaranteed visibility. No > social > > > > network to ping-pong your video around causing more views. No > "video > > > > response" so you can automatically piggyback on a video that gets > > > > viewed literally a million times. No ability to leech off of > the top > > > > subscribed people/groups in the community just by mentioning their > > > > names in the titles of your videos. No arbitrarily decided > > > > "featuring" of your video....... > > > > > > > > There's going to be a certain amount of "looking down upon" by > people > > > > who are doing MORE towards people who are doing LESS. It's just > > > > natural. MLB players look down on AAA players. AAA players > look down > > > > on little league players. World Cup soccer players look down on the > > > > local American teams. NFL players look down upon CFL players. > People > > > > making movies in Hollywood look down on independent filmmakers > without > > > > the budget even to get someone to score their film properly. Does > > > > this mean that CFL players can't make it to the NFL? No. It > doesn't > > > > mean that independent filmmakers aren't going to make it to > Hollywood > > > > or make a film that has more value and integrity than films > currently > > > > being produced in Hollywood. > > > > > > > > There's no doubt that there's SOME quality on YouTube. :) The > problem > > > > is that without the ability to separate the "YT Elite" from the > > > > garbage, all of youse have to stand together when someone chooses to > > > > evaluate the site as a whole. When someone posts a video of > some lady > > > > slipping on a banana peel and gets 100,000 views for that on > YouTube, > > > > that doesn't make them a good filmmaker. If they stole the > video from > > > > somewhere else, they're less than that. There's no regulation > and no > > > > quality control. > > > > > > > > It's like having your GED <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GED>. > > > > Basically, you can opt-out of High School and take a test. If you > > > > pass that test, the government will agree that you have enough > > > > knowledge that you WOULD HAVE graduated High School if you had > > > > bothered (or been able, in some circumstances) to go. :D Are people > > > > with GEDs looked down upon? Yep. Does it mean they can't do > the job > > > > you're hiring for? Nope. They might be the best applicant for the > > > > position. However, they're still going to be categorized with > > > > alllllll the rest of the people that walked through the doors of the > > > > emploment office with evidence that they passed one test on one day > > > > instead of going to High School and graduating like everyone else. > > > > Even if you dropped out of High School to get a job to help your > > > > mother pay the rent, you're going to be stigmatized along with the > > > > kids that spent all day smoking pot and ditching class..... Same > > > > thing with YouTube. > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Bill C. > > > > http://ReelSolid.TV > > > > > > > > > > > > -- David King davidleeking.com - blog http://davidleeking.com/etc - videoblog [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
