RE: lame b!tching about xpsp2
4 messages
James Patterson Wicks <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sat, Aug 14, 2004 at 4:22AM
Cc: Full-disclosure <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Barry,
All references to command-line were in direct reference to
Devis' comment " . . nothing more and shows how the typical M$ user is
scared as hell of having ever one day to learn Unix, go through RFCs (
what for ? M$ don't even read em themselves ), and use the command
line."
I was simply pointing out that teaching everyone command-line is
unreasonable. A lot of *nix gurus forget that there are millions of
people out there who think a korn shell is something you use for tacos.
When you are an administrator dealing with servers and applications, you
are sometimes too far removed from the real user. Managers and
designers have think like a user when it comes to making
enterprise-level decisions. Normal users cannot (and will not) use
command-line in an office. Add to that the fact that people not only
dislike change, they try to resist it, even if it's for their benefit.
These are a few of the human-factor elements that must be considered
when making a change within an enterprise.
Ok, your point on cost is correct. If you wanted to train your staff to
use Mandrake 9 (we did a beta in the office), the training costs would
be considerably less, but learning a new GUI and office application
suite still requires training. Remember that not everyone in the
company is comfortable with a computer to begin with. If you have ever
worked at the Help Desk in a company, you would understand that there
are some really dense people out there. Three years ago, migrating 500
users from Windows 98 to Windows 2000 took a month and several "training
lunches" to educate the user community on the differences in the
operating systems. Did the IT department feel it was necessary? Nope.
Did HR feel it was necessary? They sure did, and they were right. As a
whole, people have to be gently through a change, even the majority of
Windows 2000 users felt it was unnecessary. Ask any CTO. The human
element is a killer when it comes to enterprise-wide IT decisions.
The minimum training period to move some
slightly-above-minimum-wage-earning mailroom dude from Windows/Office to
Linux/Open Office is a one-week training period. That still about $2500
per user. Then you have to give your Help Desk staff extra aspirin for
the hundreds of "I used to do it this way in Word, how do I do it now"
questions that they will receive. You can cut cost even further with
in-office training, but there comes a point where you just have to
concede that the costs and headache are not worth it.
-----Original Message-----
From: Barry Fitzgerald [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, August 13, 2004 3:18 PM
To: James Patterson Wicks
Cc: Full-disclosure
Subject: Re: [Full-Disclosure] lame bitching about xpsp2
James Patterson Wicks wrote:
James,
Don't take this the wrong way, you've got a point in your e-mail
here, but I'm going to call you on some FUD in your message.
>The business world cannot afford to "start from zero" and retrain tens
>of millions of workers who use Windows desktops every day. The
business
>world needs secretaries to manage calendars and write memos, not learn
>command line syntax. The business world needs lawyers who can sit down
>and knock out a brief in Word in a few minutes, not someone who needs
to
>learn a bunch of keyboard shortcuts in a command-line text editor.
Time
>is money, and it cost too much money to re-train a world of Windows
>users.
>
>
>
"Unix is a command line..." (repeated ad nauseum)
I love this argument. As if those of us who argue for Free Software
solutions want lawyers and sales associates to write memos in vi.
(actually, I'm going to nix the pro-Unix argument because, frankly,
"Unix" isn't the viable alternative, GNU/Linux is...)
GNU/Linux is not just a command line. It's a full suite of
applications. Between Mozilla and Open Office you can do any business
function in GNU/Linux that you can in MS Windows in the GUI. In fact,
I'd argue that there's more variance in the interfaces of MS apps
between versions than there are between MS Apps and Free Software apps.
If you haven't looked at it in a while (I'm going to venture that you
haven't -- otherwise you wouldn't be making the statements that you are
regarding command-line editors) I'd suggest you try it again.
>The cost to send one of our lower-level sales associates to a one-week
>Unix class is between $2300 and $2500. Add to that the man hours that
>you lose when the person is out for a week (40 hrs * $15/hr = $600).
>That's around $3000 for one class. Who can learn command-line in one
>week? Let's say that it takes two classes for the sales associate to
>become proficient enough to run *nix from the command line. That's
>around $6,000 to learn a new OS. Even if you went the freebie route
and
>installed all open-source OS and applications, what about the cost to
>have someone come in and install them? Then you have the cost to train
>the sales associate on the new applications (another weeklong course
for
>$2000 + and salary). Then you have data migration costs. I
>conservative estimate would set the cost to move ONE employee from
>Windows to *nix would be around $10k. Multiply that by the number of
>employees (with adjustments for salary) and a company of 300 and you
are
>talking over $3 million to move USERS to *nix. This number does not
>even address the cost of data migration, retraining administrators and
>changing to *nix on the servers. This number also does not calculate
>soft costs like loss of productivity during the migration, but you
>should get the point. Unless you are starting up a business now, going
>with *nix can be incredibly cost prohibitive. It's not about
>"stupidity" or someone getting their ego hurt, it's about the cost of
>doing business and remaining competitive.
>
>
>
Those numbers are HIGHLY inflated. You don't need to send your sales
associates to Unix class anymore than you needed to send them to MS
Windows class. There goes over half of your $10,000 figure.
Installation, re-tooling, and retraining your IT staff are legitimate
concerns, though.
There are definately issues to consider, but let's be realistic about
things here and not go off the deep end, thanks.
-Barry
p.s. Aren't we getting a bit off topic here? I love a good FUD fight
just like anyone else... but this should probably get back on topic.
OK - how about the cost of having your infrastructure overtaken by
crackers? How much would that cost a fortune 1000 company? If you said
"more than the inflated migration numbers I cited above" -- then you're
right.
James Patterson Wicks <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sat, Aug 14, 2004 at 3:19AM
To: Full-disclosure <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
It's obvious that you do not have a secretary or an assistant.
Implementing change into a business environment is more painful than
pulling teeth. And then you have unions (NYC) that DEMAND training for
their members. The insanity never ends.
That being said, yes it is less expensive to run open source software,
but getting from Point A (full Microsoft environment) to Point B (open
source environment) for most companies, does not generate enough return
on investment to try.
-----Original Message-----
From: devis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, August 13, 2004 2:50 PM
To: James Patterson Wicks; Full-disclosure
Subject: Re: [Full-Disclosure] lame bitching about xpsp2
Did i said that business world should return to command line ? I wasn't
under that impression.
Do the interface of OpenOffice and MS Office looks THAT different to you
? Hell no. These secretaries are formed to work on an interface, and
changing a few things in that same interface will not as you think,
bring the business word to a crawl. To the reverse, it will make them
more proefficient at computer usage, as any human does become better
when having to deal with different interfaces / systems. It will make
them curious about the new software, capabilities and changes. It voids
the 'One way of thinking' that vendors try to impose.
Nowadays it is perfectly possible to have 'workers' use a free desktop,
100 % compatible with all M$ formats, at lower costs, performing better
( real multitasking ), and with real stability and not prone to virii.
So why isn't it happening ?
Yes Unix expertise and tuition is expensive, but if all ur software
licenses costs and other support contracts license money was going to
your own Nix expert employe, who uses free software, not only would you
save money, but you will be more secure too.
[Quoted text hidden]
Joshua Levitsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sat, Aug 14, 2004 at 6:31AM
To: Full-disclosure <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
----- Original Message -----
From: "James Patterson Wicks" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, August 13, 2004 5:22 PM
> All references to command-line were in direct reference to
> Devis' comment " . . nothing more and shows how the typical M$ user is
> scared as hell of having ever one day to learn Unix, go through RFCs (
> what for ? M$ don't even read em themselves ), and use the command
> line."
And they should not have to any more than someone should need to understand
how their car or dish washer works. These devices should serve their
function without needing to know in-depth how they work. Sure there will be
experts just like you have mechanics and home appliance repair people, but
thinking that a lawyer should need to know command line or what an RFC is...
well that's just foolish. Do you know how to rebuild your car engine when
150,000 miles comes around and you need to do it? Or do you send it off to
be rebuilt by experts?
--
Joshua Levitsky, MCSE, CISSP
System Engineer
http://www.foist.org/
[5957 F27C 9C71 E9A7 274A 0447 C9B9 75A4 9B41 D4D1]
[Quoted text hidden]
devis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sat, Aug 14, 2004 at 10:38AM
To: Joshua Levitsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Full-disclosure
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Do you buy devices ( car or dish washer ) that takes only one kind of
petrol or one kind of washing powder ? No ? Cause that was the point made.
And btw, nice signature Joshua, but i bet you get that all the time.
lmao.
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