Dear Rob,

Please do write more when you get the chance ( and some sleep ). As I said
before, this is fascinating. Now I'm starting to wonder who wrote the first
composition for guitar which actually required 6 courses ( as opposed to 5 ).
And who that composer encountered playing a 6 course guitar ( as opposed to 5 )
who inspired him to write for 6 courses .

Rest well!

Garry
 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rob MacKillop [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 2:26 PM
> To: vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
> Subject: RE: Antwort: RE: Antwort: Re: Demise of baroque guitar
> 
> Gary,
> 
> I'm falling asleep with tiredness as I write, so I'll write more on this
> later. I can't recall all the relevant facts or hypotheses just now. But
> basically both Sor and Aguado had teachers who played 6c guitars, and both
> players mention their preference for six single strings - but these
> preferences are mentioned quite late, in their methods (I think). This
> deserves more attention than I can give it tonight ... and it is only
> 7.20pm! Too early for bed, too late for sense!
> 
> Rob
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Garry Bryan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: 19 January 2005 13:20
> To: vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
> Subject: RE: Antwort: RE: Antwort: Re: Demise of baroque guitar
> 
> Dear Thomas and Rob,
> 
> Are you saying he was playing 5 double courses or 6?
> This is fascinating.
> 
> Cheers!
> 
> Garry
> 
> 
> 
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 5:34 AM
> > To: vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
> > Subject: Antwort: RE: Antwort: Re: Demise of baroque guitar
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > yes, and he later used the same guitar simple single strung.
> >
> > best wishes,
> > Thomas
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > "Rob MacKillop" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> am 19.01.2005 09:59:01
> >
> > An:    <vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> > Kopie:
> >
> > Thema: RE: Antwort: Re: Demise of baroque guitar
> >
> > Thomas, did you mean to say that Sor played a DOUBLE-strung guitar when he
> > was young? It was almost certain that he did, as did Aguado.
> >
> > Rob MacKillop
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Sent: 19 January 2005 08:13
> > To: vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
> > Subject: Antwort: Re: Demise of baroque guitar
> >
> > Dear Eugene,
> >
> > thanks for this posting.
> > Actually even the younger Sor still played a baroque guitar which was
> > single strung . Even Torres still has built guitars in the earlier
> > tradition. The Pages-Guitar in Berlin is built in 1812. A good overview
> for
> > the early romantic guitar gives Len Verrett on
> > http://www.earlyromanticguitar.com/
> >
> > best wishes
> > Thomas
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > "Eugene C. Braig IV" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> am 18.01.2005 16:57:43
> >
> > An:    [EMAIL PROTECTED] (David Cameron), vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
> > Kopie:
> >
> > Thema: Re: Demise of baroque guitar
> >
> > I'm happy to receive correction/clarification on the following from proper
> > organologists.
> >
> > At 09:01 AM 1/18/2005, David Cameron wrote:
> > >What is the latest date for an instrument distinctly recognizable as a
> > >baroque guitar?
> >
> >
> > I don't know that the "baroque guitar" should be considered a proper
> > instrument type given that 5-course guitars, very much like those popular
> > in the baroque era, persisted comfortably into the classical.  A better
> > term may be "5-course guitar."  They persisted up to the very late 18th
> c.,
> >
> > especially in France.
> >
> >
> >
> > >Did the baroque guitar, like the lute, reach a point where it was no
> > longer
> > >useful, and simply die out?
> >
> >
> > Not really.  In much of Europe, as the classical aesthetic took sway with
> a
> >
> > fondness for symmetry of contrasting, clear melodies and simple homophonic
> > accompaniment, double strung instruments didn't really have an appropriate
> > voice.  Guitarists began leaving their 5-course guitars single strung
> > (e.g., see Lhoyer's early works, especially his concerto, op. 16,
> > 1802).  The range was quickly expanded by adding a 6th string at E,
> > probably first in Italy (see <http://www3.uakron.edu/gfaa/stalking.html>
> > and <http://www.earlyromanticguitar.com/>).  Various descendants of this
> > non-Spanish European style of "classical" guitar persisted until Segovia's
> > massive popularity washed them away.  These guitars largely were braced
> > with only a few transverse bars.
> >
> > In America, C.F. Martin, originally an employee of Staufer's shop in
> > Vienna, opened his own 1833 shop building essentially German guitars.  In
> > the 1840s, he began integrating some Spanish design elements, and around
> > 1850 he introduced the now famous "X" bracing pattern.  Early Martins
> could
> >
> > be braced with transverse bars, a fan pattern of 3-6 braces, or an X
> > pattern.  While many US makers continued to brace with transverse bars,
> > there was a distinct profile and style of American "classical" guitar that
> > persisted up to the depression.  The abundant surviving examples are often
> > trivialized today as "parlor guitars."
> >
> > In Spain, where the instrument primarily served song accompaniment, a 6th
> > course at E was added to the double strung instrument.  It then went to
> six
> >
> > single strings.  These instruments largely were fan braced.
> >
> >
> >
> > >Are the singly strung guitars of the nineteenth century, and the modern
> > >classical guitars, direct developements of the baroque guitar...?
> >
> >
> > Of sorts.  The modern form directly evolved of 6-course guitars which were
> > derived from the 5-course guitars of the baroque.  The form was
> > standardized in Spain, largely in the Torres shop of the mid-late 19th c.
> > (although Panormo's London shop that built guitars in the "Spanish style"
> > and a few others did build some large, essentially modern classical
> guitars
> >
> > a bit earlier in the mid 19th c.).  Even the famous Herman Hauser I in
> > Munich built many large, early guitars that were descended from classic
> > Germanic instruments like those of Staufer/Stauffer or Scherzer earlier in
> > his career.  Segovia's popularity largely washed away the memory of the
> > older Germanic, Italianate, French, and American classical guitars leaving
> > the Spanish paradigm with which we are all familiar.  These modern
> > Spanish-style instruments were still fan braced, symmetrically until
> > Ramirez introduced an asymmetric pattern in the 1960s.
> >
> > Best,
> > Eugene
> >
> >
> >
> > To get on or off this list see list information at
> > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> >
> >
> >
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> 




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