I'd love to see it too.

Eugene

At 09:14 AM 9/10/2008, Monica Hall wrote:
>Well - if you find it - do let us know!
>
>Monica
>
>----- Original Message ----- From: "Martyn Hodgson" 
><[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: "Monica Hall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Cc: "Vihuelalist" <vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
>Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2008 8:45 AM
>Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: arch-guitar
>
>
>
>Thanks
>
>As said, I have a copy of the pattern somewhere - just have to find it!
>
>I have however now found the FoMRHI article which mentions Strad's
>'chitara tiorbata' (by yrs truly): FoMRHI Comm 663 October 1985 'The 
>stringing of a baroque guitar'. Unfortunately, my aim in the paper was to 
>look at evidence for stringing of the top 5 courses and, whilst I refer to 
>Strad's records of the theorboed instrument, I only quote his remarks on 
>the first 10 strings (ie 5 courses) and none on the basses.
>
>MH
>
>
>
>--- On Tue, 9/9/08, Monica Hall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>>From: Monica Hall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: arch-guitar
>>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>Cc: "Vihuelalist" <vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
>>Date: Tuesday, 9 September, 2008, 8:47 PM
>>The information comes from
>>
>>Sacconi, Simone F., The secrets of Stradivari (Cremona :
>>Libreria del
>>Convegno, 1979), Item 375, p.228.
>>
>>
>>It's a paper pattern of a neck and fingerboard 320mm
>>long by 72 mm and 60
>>min width... with a description of the strings and their
>>arrangement at the
>>nut.   There is a handwritten note on the back by the sons
>>of Strad "Misura
>>della Longezza et largezza del manico della chitara
>>tiorbata"  followed by
>>the description of the strings.
>>
>>I wonder if anyone has seen the paper pattern?  Or has a
>>copy of it?
>>
>>Monica
>>
>>
>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Martyn Hodgson"
>><[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>To: "Monica Hall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>Cc: "Vihuelalist"
>><vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
>>Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2008 6:54 PM
>>Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: arch-guitar
>>
>>
>>
>>I'm really not so sure Monica. Whilst it's
>>certainly true that whenever
>>Strad is mentioned it's generally only the five courses
>>which are of
>>interest and so are the only ones referred to, But I have
>>this nagging
>>memory that in fact he describes theorboed guitar
>>stringing. Indeed I also
>>recall FoMRHI had relevant articles in mid/late 70s - I
>>must look.
>>
>>I've been to my stack (ie loft) to find the
>>articles/facsimile but no luck
>>so far in the piles of misc paper - I will persevere...
>>
>>Another who thinks the basses are at the upper octave is
>>Tyler ( 'the
>>guitar... OUP 2002) page 74 Footnote 51 where he describes
>>Granata's
>>theorboed guitar as having seven 'unfingered basses
>>tuned daitonically down
>>to a A at the bottom of the bass clef' ie down to A as
>>I suggest and not to
>>A,. Of course Tyler is not always reliable , but.....
>>Sources requiring
>>the same instruments are listed as Granata 1659, the De
>>Gallot Ms, I-NC Ms
>>(have you got this?) and Bob Spencer's sonata for
>>'chitarrone francese'.
>>
>>Of course, by the mid 18th century the various types of
>>arch citterns and
>>arch guitars introduced as novelties could use heavy
>>overwound strings and
>>be strung down to A,.  But, as said earlier, I really
>>can't see getting a
>>satisfactory sound from a gut string c. 116cm at A,.
>>
>>MH
>>
>>
>>
>>--- On Tue, 9/9/08, Monica Hall
>><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>> > From: Monica Hall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> > Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: arch-guitar
>> > To: "Martyn Hodgson"
>><[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> > Cc: "Vihuelalist"
>><vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
>> > Date: Tuesday, 9 September, 2008, 4:35 PM
>> > Stradivarius describes the strings on the fingerboard
>>and
>> > the 4th and 5th
>> > courses are octave strung.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > I don't think he describes the open courses.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Monica
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > First & second strings: These must be like two
>>guitar
>> > first strings
>> > (cantini)
>> >
>> >             Third & fourth strings:These must be
>>like
>> > two guitar second
>> > strings (sotanelle)
>> >
>> > Fifth & sixth strings:      These must be like two
>> > thick violin first
>> > strings (cantini)
>> >
>> > Seventh string:              This must be a violin
>>second
>> > string (canto)
>> >
>> > Eighth string:                 This must be a guitar
>>second
>> > string
>> > (sotanella)
>> >
>> > Ninth string:      This must be the thickest possible
>> > violin second string
>> > (canto)
>> >
>> > Tenth string:                  This must be a violin
>>first
>> > string (cantino)
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Martyn Hodgson"
>> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> > To: "Rob MacKillop"
>> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> > Cc: "Vihuela"
>><vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
>> > Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2008 3:21 PM
>> > Subject: [LUTE] Re: arch-guitar
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Yes, indeed, they would double some of the fingered
>>strings
>> > but that, I
>> > think, is the point: you can play an open bass whilst
>> > fingering a string
>> > (even though the same open pitch) - the same advantage
>> > indeed as the late Dm
>> > lute of course ie not so much/or only to get lower
>>notes
>> > but to free the
>> > left hand.
>> >
>> > I mention all this because I recall an early source
>>(may be
>> > Strad's arch
>> > guitar) gives higher octave stringing (I can't lay
>>my
>> > hands on the paperwork
>> > at the present but will dig out in due course.
>> >
>> > Monica may know what I'm on about.......
>> >
>> > Martyn
>> >
>> >
>> > --- On Tue, 9/9/08, Rob MacKillop
>> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> >
>> > > From: Rob MacKillop
>><[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> > > Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: arch-guitar
>> > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> > > Cc: "Vihuela"
>> > <vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
>> > > Date: Tuesday, 9 September, 2008, 3:07 PM
>> > > The string length of the basses is c.116cms. I
>>say
>> > > 'circa' because I
>> > >    couldn't find a tape measure, so ended up
>>using
>> > a
>> > > six-inch ruler...
>> > >
>> > >    The Granata Sarbande and Corrente do not have
>> > passages
>> > > that would
>> > >    suggest anything other than GFEDCBA. In the
>>tuning
>> > you
>> > > mention, Martyn,
>> > >    (gfedcBA) does not the g double the open third
>> > course,
>> > > and likewise the
>> > >    d with the fourth course? I can't see any
>> > allowances
>> > > for that in the
>> > >    scores.
>> > >
>> > >    The Sarabande is difficult to play without
>>laughing
>> > -
>> > > the first seven
>> > >    bass notes (tasto) chime out Prokofiev's
>>Hall
>> > of the
>> > > Mountain King (if
>> > >    that's the correct title) from Pictures at
>>an
>> > > Exhibition... This music
>> > >    is difficult to play! I wish I hadn't
>>promised
>> > a
>> > > video!!
>> > >
>> > >    Rob
>> > >    2008/9/8 Martyn Hodgson
>> > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> > >
>> > >      Rob,
>> > >      Thanks - interesting: there's a thought
>>that
>> > the
>> > > 'basses' could have
>> > >      been at the upper octave rather than the
>>lower as
>> > you
>> > > indicate. In
>> > >      short, descending from the 5th course string
>> > plucked
>> > > first by the
>> > >      thumb (ie from the a downwards g f e d c B A
>>and
>> > not
>> > > G F E D C B,
>> > >      A, as you say it's now strung.
>>What's
>> > the
>> > > string length of the
>> > >      basses? I would have thought it needed to be
>> > around
>> > > 160cm to get a
>> > >      reasonable sound from a plain gut low A,
>>string
>> > but
>> > > I'm not sure
>> > >      that any theorboed guitar had basses so very
>> > long.
>> > >      Martyn
>> > >
>> > >    --- On Mon, 8/9/08, Rob MacKillop
>> > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> > >    wrote:
>> > >    > From: Rob MacKillop
>> > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> > >
>> > >      > Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] arch-guitar
>> > >      > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> > >      > Cc: "Vihuela"
>> > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> > >      > Date: Monday, 8 September, 2008, 10:25
>>AM
>> > >
>> > >    > It has diapasons on the fourth and fifth,
>>on
>> > the
>> > > finger
>> > >    > side, high octave on
>> > >    > the thumb side. Then it has single bass
>> > strings
>> > > descending
>> > >    > from G to low A,
>> > >    > then it leaps up for a g# and an f#.
>> > >    >
>> > >    > I don't know if it 'works for
>>me'
>> > - not
>> > > sure
>> > >    > what that means. Seems to fit
>> > >    > the music by Granata OK.
>> > >    >
>> > >    > Wolfgang has made the lower nut wide
>>enough to
>> > fit
>> > > a sixth
>> > >    > course for
>> > >    > archlute tuning in E or F. I won't
>>have
>> > time to
>> > > explore
>> > >    > that, however.
>> > >    >
>> > >    > Rob
>> > >    >
>> > >    > 2008/9/8 Martyn Hodgson
>> > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> > >    >
>> > >    > > Rob,
>> > >    > >
>> > >    > > Are the basses at the upper octave
>>and
>> > does
>> > > this work
>> > >    > for you?
>> > >    > >
>> > >    > > Martyn
>> > >    > >
>> > >    > >
>> > >    > > --- On Sun, 7/9/08, Rob MacKillop
>> > >    > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>wrote:
>> > >    > >
>> > >    > > > From: Rob MacKillop
>> > >    > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> > >    > > > Subject: [VIHUELA] arch-guitar
>> > >    > > > To: "Vihuela"
>> > >    > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> > >    > > > Date: Sunday, 7 September,
>>2008,
>> > 11:23 PM
>> > >    > >  > Just received the arch-guitar
>>from
>> > > Wolfgand
>> > >    > Emmerich. I have
>> > >    > > > one week
>> > >    > > >    to master it (!) before he
>>takes
>> > it
>> > > back to
>> > >    > Germany. It
>> > >    > > > is a well-made
>> > >    > > >    instrument, but everytime I
>>try
>> > to
>> > > play
>> > >    > something, I
>> > >    > > > can't help
>> > >    > > >    thinking I am in archlute
>>tuning.
>> > I
>> > > have some
>> > >    > Gallot -
>> > >    > > > but that is in a
>> > >    > > >    weird tuning requiring a
>>change
>> > of
>> > > strings, so
>> > >    > will give
>> > >    > > > it a miss. I
>> > >    > > >    also have some Granata, so I
>>hope
>> > to
>> > > record
>> > >    > that before
>> > >    > > > Saturday, maybe
>> > >    > > >    a video, we'll see.
>> > >    > > >
>> > >    > > >    Rob
>> > >    > > >
>> > >    > > >    --
>> > >    > > >
>> > >    > > >
>> > >    > > > To get on or off this list see
>>list
>> > > information
>> > >    > at
>> > >    > > >
>> > >    >
>> > >
>> >
>>[10]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>> > >    > >
>> > >    > >
>> > >    > >
>> > >    > >
>> > >
>> > >    --
>> > >
>> > > References
>> > >
>> > >    1. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> > >    2. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> > >    3. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> > >    4. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> > >    5. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
>> > >    6. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> > >    7. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> > >    8. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> > >    9. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
>> > >   10.
>> > >
>>http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > To get on or off this list see list information
>>at
>> > >
>>http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
>
>
>
>
>To get on or off this list see list information at
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