Hi Stuart and List,
I think these plus diminuees need to be played up to tempo, even though
it's such a challenge.
When I think about tempo with these plus diminuee movements, I take the
dance aspect seriously. Here are a couple of my favorite quotes from
the author of the 16th c dance tutor, Orchesography:
"I learned [a galliard] on the lute which I enjoyed seeing danced by my
companions as I knew how to play and sing it. And it also seemed to me
that the steps were well accented by those who danced it."
And
"Only you should be told now that some dancers divide up the double
that follows the two simples, and instead of the double comprising only
four bars with four semi-breves, they introduce eight minims or sixteen
crotchets, resulting in a great number of steps, passages and
embellishments, all of which fit into the time and cadence of the
music."
Thoinot Arbeau, Orchesography (Langres: 1589; reprint, New York: Dover,
1967, translated by Mary Stewart Evans, introduced and annotated by
Julia Sutton), pp 66 and 91 (page references are to reprint edition).
Le Roy himself seems to imply a tempo with the diminutions:
. . . decke other songes or daunses, with like flowers and ornamentes:
in whiche he shall bee forced sometyme, for the better grace and
pleasying of the eare, to leave out someone note of the accorde, of
some one of the partes: not so much for all that for necessitie, as for
the pleasauntness of the sounde: yea, and that with full recompence of
the lacke of the note, whiche shalbee omitted, by the puttyng to of
runnyng poinct or passage, wherein lieth all the cunnyng.
Adrian Le Roy, A Briefe and Plaine Instruction. London: Rowbotham,
1574, quoted in Adrian Le Roy, Adrian Le Roy; French Renaissance Guitar
Songs, Charles Wolzien, ed. (Quebec: Doberman-Yppan, 2002), 10.
Yes, the speed is very challenging, and I think musicality is even
harder with some of these more extreme versions. One of my favorite
tracks on Michael Craddock's recording is the Le Roy prelude, which has
that dichotomy between the long notes and the swift scalar runs.
Craddock, with his very impressive technique, executes the fast
passages well and all feels musical to me. But the reason why the
Prelude works so well is that it's less metric, with lots of room for
the musician to build, wind down, and so on, unlike the plus diminuee
movements we're talking about.
Morlaye's "La Seraphine" might make a better model if we're wondering
about this style, because it also goes quite abruptly from long notes
to fast diminutions, in this instance with a style which asks for a
more strict tempo, more like the dances. I personally think the pulse
falls apart if we slow down for the divisions, so to me this piece
provides some evidence of a style in which a burst of short notes in
tempo was not unusual or "freakish" to them.
Stuart, which O'Dette recordings are you referring to? I have one
example: "Tablatures de Leut" Astree E7776 1990. He plays a Le Roy
bransle with a plus diminuee movement; his diminutions are very crisp,
light and graceful. To my ears he pulls this off not only technically
but musically, too, in spite of the disparity between the long and
short notes. I'd love to hear about other recordings if you know of
some.
Sorry for such a long email. I'll end with my idea that these
diminutions themselves are optional - whether we do them at all, and
which notes we use is up to the performer. If we want to be completely
"authentic," we should be making up our own (according to certain
conventions regarding which phrases and beats were most ornamented in
particular dances). Even dance tempos have at least a bit of a range
with dancers, which is where we should find our dance tempos. But
whether or not plus diminuee movements should be performed "up to
tempo" right after a plainer version of a dance movement? I don't think
that's optional; any other tempo would make the dancers look very
funny!
Best,
Jocelyn
--
Jocelyn Nelson, DMA
Teaching Assistant Professor
Early Guitar, Music History
506 School of Music
East Carolina University
252.328.1255 office
252.328.6258 fax
[1]nels...@ecu.edu
___________________________________________________________________
From: Stuart Walsh <[2]s.wa...@ntlworld.com>
Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 18:09:05 -0400
To: Daniel F Heiman <[3]heiman.dan...@juno.com>
Cc: <[4]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: four-course guitar music 'plus diminuees'
Daniel F Heiman wrote:
> Stuart:
>
> In his instrumental version Michael is taking a tempo to match the
> current fashion for rendering the original Passereau chanson. An
only
> slightly extreme example is the one by the King's Singers:
> [5]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nmpl4mZQgAc
>
> If you listen to Michael's rendition immediately after that, he seems
> positively laid back.
>
> Daniel
>
That explains it. Thanks. I was just intrigued by the possible irony
that - after discussion whether some of these fast pieces pieces should
be played slower - here's someone playing slow pieces much faster!
I used to have a recording of a group singing a chanson with a title
something like 'Il est belle et bon' (which can't be right), possibly
also by Passereau and that was sung very quickly. And then looking at a
lute arrangement of the chanson, possibly in Phalese somewhere and
thinking something to the effect - no chance, at that speed. Leroy's
guitar arrangement of the Passereau chanson (that Michael Craddock
recorded) is simple and straightforward so perhaps that does hint at a
fast speed.
Stuart
> On Thu, 26 Mar 2009 22:55:38 +0000 Stuart Walsh
<[6]s.wa...@ntlworld.com>
> writes:
>
>> Monica Hall wrote:
>>
>>> Michael Craddock has made a very nice recording of some of these
>>> pieces . It is Cantus Records, C 9632.
>>>
>>> However he does try to play the diminue versions at the same speed
>>>
>> as
>>
>>> the unadorned versions - and doesn't always bring it off cleanly.
>>>
>>> I would think that a slightly slower tempo might be acceptable -
>>>
>> even
>>
>>> for the plain versions.
>>>
>>> Maybe I am getting old but breakneck speeds don't always seem to
>>>
>> me to
>>
>>> work very well on double strung instruments. Everything seems to
>>>
>> merge
>>
>>> together and lack clarity.
>>>
>>> I seem to remember reading in one of the books - can't remember
>>>
>> where
>>
>>> - that you should adopt a speed which matches your ability...
>>>
>>>
>>> MOnica
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> I googled Michael Craddock and found a couple of recordings of
>> four-course repertoire, including this chanson which Giesbert
>> translates
>> as "I dare not say it";
>>
>> [7]http://www.polyhymnion.org/mus/craddock/audio/crad11.mp3
>>
>> In the tablature there are no fast runs - it doesn't appear to be an
>>
>> extravert piece but Craddock blazes through it! I supoose he had
>> good
>> reasons but I'd have thought that this was a gentle little piece.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stuart Walsh"
>>>
>> <[8]s.wa...@ntlworld.com>
>>
>>> To: "Michael Fink" <[9]michael.f...@notesinc.com>; "Vihuelalist"
>>> <[10]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 9:56 PM
>>> Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: four-course guitar music 'plus diminuees'
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>> Regarding your questions, some commentaries you might want to
>>>>>
>> look
>>
>>>>> at are:
>>>>>
>>>>> * Jocelyn Carrie Nelson, "Adrian Le Roy's _Premiere livre de
>>>>> tabulature de
>>>>> guiterre_ (1551): Transcription and analysis of the ornamented
>>>>>
>> pavanes,
>>
>>>>> galliards, and branles," D.M.A. monograph, University of
>>>>>
>> Colorado,
>>
>>>>> 2002.
>>>>>
>>>>> * Michael Fink," The 'Lost' Guitar Pieces of Adrian Le Roy,"
>>>>>
>> _Lute
>>
>>>>> Society
>>>>> of America Quarterly_, XLIII/3 (Sep 2008): 42-43.
>>>>>
>>>>> * The additional "plus diminuee" pieces discussed in the latter
>>>>>
>> are
>>
>>>>> published in _Pierre Phalese, Selectissima Elegantissimaque
>>>>>
>> Guiterna
>>
>>>>> Carmina
>>>>> 1570_, Introduction by Michael Fink. Lubeck: Tree Edition,
>>>>>
>> (c)2007.
>>
>>>> Many thanks for these references.
>>>>
>>>>> IMHO, Renaissance dances in printed or ms. collections are
>>>>>
>> somewhat
>>
>>>>> bifocal.
>>>>> They may or may not be intended for the dance. The distinctive
>>>>> rhythms and
>>>>> periodicity of a dance may be present, but those features may be
>>>>>
>> merely
>>
>>>>> structural, and the piece may have been written mainly for
>>>>>
>> listening
>>
>>>>> and
>>>>> playing enjoyment.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thus tempos in Le Roy's "plus diminuee" versions could probably
>>>>>
>> be
>>
>>>>> modified
>>>>> from the unadorned versions with good effect.
>>>>>
>>>> I'm always intrigued by a puzzle and either players then (and
>>>>
>> this
>>
>>>> repertoire is usually said to be aimed at amateurs) were capable
>>>>
>> of
>>
>>>> playing at staggering speeds - or, as I think you are suggesting
>>>>
>> -
>>
>>>> they played these pieces more slowly. But I think there are
>>>>
>> problems
>>
>>>> with both.
>>>>
>>>> I'm just an amateur player but playing first the plain version of
>>>>
>> a
>>
>>>> little dance at something like a dance-like tempo - then keeping
>>>>
>> that
>>
>>>> tempo and trying to play the fancy version at the same tempo is
>>>>
>> quite
>>
>>>> beyond possibility for me. But if loads of people are playing
>>>>
>> these
>>
>>>> pieces (the 'plus diminuees' versions ) I'd love to hear them.and
>>>>
>> be
>>
>>>> rightly chastened. Even playing flat out, playing far faster
>>>>
>> than I
>>
>>>> can clearly articulate, doesn't get me close to the speed I'd
>>>>
>> need to
>>
>>>> be if I'm playing in the dance-like tempo of the plain version.
>>>>
>> At
>>
>>>> these sort of speeds the music is miles beyond any amateur
>>>>
>> plucked
>>
>>>> music I've ever encountered.
>>>>
>>>> But playing them more slowly seems implausible too. They fancy
>>>> versions are only fancy in having these very fast (rather
>>>>
>> formulaic)
>>
>>>> runs - they aren't wholly re-cast as arty things and there are
>>>>
>> bars
>>
>>>> and bars without fast divisions which would just sound rather
>>>>
>> silly
>>
>>>> at a slower speed.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Stuart
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> (BTW, Le Roy seems to be the
>>>>> only composer to write plain & fancy versions of the same piece
>>>>>
>> for the
>>
>>>>> guitar -- and for the lute.)
>>>>>
>>>>> At this point, I yield to Jocelyn with her extensive experience
>>>>>
>> in this
>>
>>>>> repertoire and deep knowledge of the Renaissance guitar. You may
>>>>>
>>>>> wish to
>>>>> write to her.
>>>>>
>>>>> Best wishes,
>>>>>
>>>>> Michael Fink
>>>>>
>>>>> _________________________
>>>>>
>>>>> [11]mich...@lgv-pub.com
>>>>> _________________________
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Stuart Walsh [[12]mailto:s.wa...@ntlworld.com] Sent:
Tuesday,
>>>>>
>>>>> March 24, 2009 3:54 PM
>>>>> To: Vihuelalist
>>>>> Subject: [VIHUELA] four-course guitar music 'plus diminuees'
>>>>>
>>>>> I've got a four-course guitar for a short while. I used to try
>>>>>
>> and
>>
>>>>> play this four-course (mid 16th century) repertoire, years ago,
>>>>>
>> on a
>>
>>>>> baritone uke and a home-made concoction - without much success
>>>>>
>> or
>>
>>>>> pleasure. Anyway this current instrument is a good one...but I
>>>>>
>> must
>>
>>>>> admit I can't make it sound very well at all.
>>>>>
>>>>> But I'm interested to know what people think about the speeds
>>>>>
>> of
>>
>>>>> the 'plus diminuee' pieces, the versions of pieces with
>>>>>
>> divisions.
>>
>>>>> Leroy's Third Book has many little dances with second versions
>>>>>
>> of
>>
>>>>> the pieces with divisions. Perhaps it's important that the 'plus
>>>>>
>>>>> diminuees' versions are free-standing. Pieces with ornamented
>>>>> repeats might have been expected. But no, there is a
>>>>> straightforward, 'simple' version and then the 'plus diminuees'
>>>>>
>>>>> version.
>>>>>
>>>>> Some commentators (like Harvey Turnbull) have been quite
>>>>>
>> dismissive
>>
>>>>> of all of this 'amateur' music - which, I suppose, it must have
>>>>>
>>>>> been. But looking at the 'plus diminuees' pieces again, and
>>>>>
>> trying
>>
>>>>> to play them I wonder whoever could possibly have played them.
>>>>>
>> As an
>>
>>>>> example, the straightforward version of Almande tournee
>>>>>
>> (Allemande
>>
>>>>> Loreyne) f.16 feels like a two to a bar tune with running eighth
>>>>>
>>>>> notes. It's a lively little dance. But, at that speed for the
>>>>> straightforward version, the 'plus diminuees' version is
>>>>> ridiculously, absurdly - freakishly - fast. But if the 'plus
>>>>> diminuess' version is slowed down to a human level, the dance is
>>>>>
>> now
>>
>>>>> unbearably, turgidly slow.
>>>>>
>>>>> Th Spanish guitar books don't have an equivalent of these 'plus
>>>>>
>>>>> diminuees' pieces. The Spanish guitar pieces can be challenging
>>>>>
>> and
>>
>>>>> difficult - but not beyond practice and hard work. I don't
>>>>>
>> think
>>
>>>>> the Gorlier books have anything like the 'plus diminuees' pieces
>>>>>
>>>>> either.
>>>>>
>>>>> Paul Odette (fastest on earth?) has recorded some of this stuff
>>>>>
>> and
>>
>>>>> it sounds a bit weird...why turn a dance tune into a sort of
>>>>>
>> machine
>>
>>>>> gun burst? (And almost all of the divisions are within the first
>>>>>
>>>>> five frets of a four-course instrument: all squashed into to a
>>>>>
>> tiny
>>
>>>>> space).
>>>>>
>>>>> So I wonder what these 'plus diminuees' pieces are all about.
>>>>>
>> Is
>>
>>>>> anyone happily playing them?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Stuart
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>>>>> [13]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>>>
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--
References
1. file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/nels...@ecu.edu
2. file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/s.wa...@ntlworld.com
3. file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/heiman.dan...@juno.com
4. file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
5. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nmpl4mZQgAc
6. file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/s.wa...@ntlworld.com
7. http://www.polyhymnion.org/mus/craddock/audio/crad11.mp3
8. file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/s.wa...@ntlworld.com
9. file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/michael.f...@notesinc.com
10. file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
11. file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/mich...@lgv-pub.com
12. mailto:s.wa...@ntlworld.com
13. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
