Further to the below, I've skimmed through the entire 'Libro secondo' of Chrysander's 'Cantate con strumenti' to see if any answers to the question of certainty in the Ms scoring can be found. Always, of course, assuming C accurately transcribed the Ms in his edition.
It's a bit of a mixed bag: the ones requiring larger forces mostly specify the particular instruments required on each line, whilst the smaller ones (such as the cantata under discussion) generally do not. The ones which are marked wth instrument names (ie not put in brackets by C) against each stave are: 16 Apollo e Dafne Cantata a 2 - instrumental staves marked as Hautbois, Violini, Basson, Bassi (29pp) 19 Cantata a tre - instrumental staves marked concertino, concerto grosso (presume violins) (22pp) 20' Spande ancor...' - instrumental staves marked violino I, violino II (6pp) 21 'Tra la fiamme..' Staves marked for flauto I, II, Violino I, II, Va da G, Continuo (but not put in brackets - did Handel ever use call it this? - perhaps C wasn't so careful in his transcriptions?) The remainder (ie 17, 18, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27) have non-specified instrumental parts which C usually supposes is for violin(s). I suggest this strengthens the case that the upper instrumental line of No 18 'Cantata Spagnuola' is probably for a melodic instrument (violin, flute or oboe) and the second line (ie v similar to continuo bass) is indeed for guitar to improvise an accompaniment as I previously suggested. But No 21 brings doubts to my mind about C's reliabilty so would still like to see the entire MS.... or comments from someone who has a copy Martyn --- On Mon, 11/5/09, hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote: From: hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Haendel - Cantata Spagnuola To: "Monica Hall" <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> Date: Monday, 11 May, 2009, 2:59 PM 1. We (ie you and I) do not know if Chrysander did reproduce the original notation: my guess is (like I think yours is) that he has. The issue is not this but 2 below. 2. The point about seeing the original is, as already said, to see wether any other piece in the MS has no instrument name for a top obligatto instrumental line. If all such pieces are so identified in the MS then we move a step closer to being able to say that the top line is for guitar; if not then a step further away. 3. As mentioned in my first response, the duplicated bass line would be for the guitar - not that uncommon to find two v similar ( or even identical) bass lines in a MS. Indeed the suggestion that it might be for theorbo (but why this and not, say organ or harp? - two rather more Spanish instruments) also overlooks the two similar bass lines. But as said, this isn't a problem. Martyn --- On Mon, 11/5/09, Monica Hall <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote: From: Monica Hall <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: [VIHUELA] Re: [VIHUELA] Haendel - Cantata Spagnuola To: "Martyn Hodgson" <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> Date: Monday, 11 May, 2009, 12:49 PM > When you say 'seems' does this mean it is an accurate transcription or > may not be? I mean that I have not checked every note of it but it looks as if he has reproduced the original notation and that you probably don't need to see the original ms......to know what the part consists of. > > And, more to the point, if you have a copy of the MS are there no other > pieces in which the top line instrumentation is not marked?. I have a copy only of the manuscript of the Spanish Cantata. > > As already said, like you (and others) I'd like this to be for guitar > but because of problems (such as overlapping lines) think it right to > be cautious. A more critical analysis of the MS would help in settling > the question........ Well - for starters - why include the bass line if the obligato part is for flute or violin? The obligato part consists of treble and bass staves which presumably means it is for an instrument capable of playing them. This could of course be a lute of some description or a keyboard instrument. As I write I have just had this message from someone on www.earlyguitar.ning.com "There is a great article about this piece (it's in portuguese). Check: [1]http://www.tesis.ufm.edu.gt/pdf/848.pdf Apparently the writer makes a good case for it being for theorbo or chitarrone or whatever you care to call it. Which had crossed my mind ....it brings us back to the question of what the term "chitarra" might mean in the context. Monica > > MH > --- On Sun, 10/5/09, Monica Hall <[2]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote: > > From: Monica Hall <[3]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> > Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: [VIHUELA] Haendel - Cantata Spagnuola > To: "Martyn Hodgson" <[4]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> > Cc: "Vihuelalist" <[5]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu> > Date: Sunday, 10 May, 2009, 4:52 PM > > Well - I am not going to offer to scan the whole thing but I did look > at the Chrysander version and he seems to have reproduced the > manuscript faithfully if you want to check. > > Monica > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: [1]Martyn Hodgson > > To: [2]Monica Hall > > Cc: [3]Vihuelalist > > Sent: Sunday, May 10, 2009 4:35 PM > > Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: [VIHUELA] Haendel - Cantata Spagnuola > > > No - I don't think odd at all - the composr would simply be pointing > the exotic. > > No doubt like many, I would like to think this was for solo guitar > (with prhps a bass instrument) but it's important to avoid wishful > thinking clouding judgement. I'd still like to see what appears > elsewhere in the MS before jumping to conclusions > > MH > --- On Sun, 10/5/09, Monica Hall <[4][6]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote: > > From: Monica Hall <[5][7]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> > Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: [VIHUELA] Haendel - Cantata Spagnuola > To: "Martyn Hodgson" <[8]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> > Cc: "Vihuelalist" <[9]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu> > Date: Sunday, 10 May, 2009, 4:26 PM > > Well - it would be rather odd to mention the guitar specifically if it > was only part of the continuo group rather than the obligato > instrument. The whole point about the piece is that it is a kind of > pastiche in the Spanish style - both the music and the way in which it > is notated. > > Monica > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: [6]Martyn Hodgson > > To: [7]Monica Hall > > Cc: [8]Vihuelalist > > Sent: Sunday, May 10, 2009 8:10 AM > > Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: [VIHUELA] Haendel - Cantata Spagnuola > > > Indeed, hence why it's important to see the practice throughout this > MS. As already said, it may be that additional melodic instrumental > parts are not identified. > > MH > --- On Sat, 9/5/09, Monica Hall <[9][10]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote: > > From: Monica Hall <[10][11]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> > Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: [VIHUELA] Haendel - Cantata Spagnuola > To: "Martyn Hodgson" <[11][12]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> > Cc: "Vihuelalist" <[12][13]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu> > Date: Saturday, 9 May, 2009, 4:33 PM > > The title written at the top of the first page of the manuscript is > "Cantata > Spagnuola a voce sola e chitarra.". The guitar is the obligato > instrument. > There is no mention of flute or violin. > Monica > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Martyn Hodgson" <[13][14]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> > To: <[14][15]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu>; "Mjos & Larson" > <[15][16]rockype...@earthlink.net> > Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2009 9:04 AM > Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: [VIHUELA] Haendel - Cantata Spagnuola > > > > > > Without having seen the original MS it's difficult to be sure if > > Chrysander's edition is wholly accurate, certainly his naming the > two > > upper staves of the system as for guitar seems editorial (since he > > places the chittara in brackets). It would also be revealing to see > if > > this MS usually identifies a particular instrument on the top line > or > > if it was assumed (a violin, oboe or flute perhaps). Further, if > the > > upper line is played an octave down (as you rightly suggest more in > the > > period guitar tessitura) it crosses the bass line (eg bar 2). > > > > I suggest it more likely that the composer simply expected the > guitar > > to play along as continuo (hence second line down duplicating the > bass > > stave) and that a violin, or flute or oboe played the melodic upper > > line. the bass then played by cello with/without keyboard. > > > > MH > > > > --- On Sat, 9/5/09, Mjos & Larson <[16][17]rockype...@earthlink.net> > wrote: > > > > From: Mjos & Larson <[17][18]rockype...@earthlink.net> > > Subject: [VIHUELA] Haendel - Cantata Spagnuola > > To: [18][19]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu > > Date: Saturday, 9 May, 2009, 7:07 AM > > > > I have been thinking to ask this group for ideas and suggestions on > > approaching Haendel's "No se emendera jamas " (Cantata Spagnuola a > voce > > sola e Chitarra) for some time. > > The Chrysander edition is online at: > > [1][19][20]http://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/~db/0001/bsb0001 6889/ima > ges/inde > > x.html?id=00016889&fip=66.41.254.100&no=5&seite=44 > > Is it safe to assume it was written for a standard baroque guitar > in E? > > I have no idea of the original source, but given the range of the > part > > marked "Chitarra" I would think to play the melody down an octave > from > > Chrysander's G-clef notation, which would take the melody from the > > fifth fret first string down to the second fret on the fourth > course. > > This strikes me as a bit low for playing a solo part above the > > continuo. > > The bass notes only seem just to be a continuo line to harmonize. > > How might members of the group have performed this, and with what > > instrumental forces? Theorbo continuo only, or harpsichord? Bass > viol > > only? > > Or do do we take the subtitle literally that it is only voice and > > guitar? Then we have a bit of a range problem with the written bass > > line and upper part (assuming my octave transposition of the upper > > voice). > > Does someone have knowledge of the original notation to be able to > > comment on the faithfulness Chysander's edition? He claims it is > > faithful here: > > [2][20][21]http://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/~db/0001/bsb0001 6889/ima > ges/inde > > x.html?seite=7 > > -- R > > To get on or off this list see list information at > > [3][21][22]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.ht ml > > > > -- > > > > References > > > > 1. > > > [22][23]http://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/~db/0001/bsb00016889/im ages/ind > ex.html?id=00016889&fip=66.41.254.100&no=5&seite=44 > > 2. > > > [23][24]http://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/~db/0001/bsb00016889/im ages/ind > ex.html?seite=7 > > 3. [24][25]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > > -- > > References > > 1. > [26]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co .uk > 2. [27]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk > 3. [28]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.e du > 4. [29]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk > 5. [30]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk > 6. > [31]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co .uk > 7. [32]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk > 8. [33]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.e du > 9. [34]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk > 10. [35]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk > 11. > [36]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co .uk > 12. [37]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.e du > 13. > [38]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co .uk > 14. [39]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.e du > 15. [40]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=rockype...@earthlink.n et > 16. [41]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=rockype...@earthlink.n et > 17. [42]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=rockype...@earthlink.n et > 18. [43]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.e du > 19. [44]http://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/~db/0001/bsb00016889/images/ind e > 20. [45]http://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/~db/0001/bsb00016889/images/ind e > 21. [46]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > 22. > [47]http://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/~db/0001/bsb00016889/images/ind ex.html?id=00016889&fip=66.41.254.100&no=5&seite=44 > 23. > [48]http://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/~db/0001/bsb00016889/images/ind ex.html?seite=7 > 24. [49]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > -- References 1. http://www.tesis.ufm.edu.gt/pdf/848.pdf 2. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 3. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 4. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk 5. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu 6. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 7. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 8. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk 9. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu 10. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 11. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 12. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk 13. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu 14. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk 15. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu 16. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=rockype...@earthlink.net 17. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=rockype...@earthlink.net 18. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=rockype...@earthlink.net 19. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu 20. http://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/~db/0001/bsb00016889/ima 21. http://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/~db/0001/bsb00016889/ima 22. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 23. http://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/~db/0001/bsb00016889/images/ind 24. http://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/~db/0001/bsb00016889/images/ind 25. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 26. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk 27. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 28. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu 29. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 30. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 31. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk 32. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 33. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu 34. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 35. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 36. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk 37. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu 38. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk 39. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu 40. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=rockype...@earthlink.net 41. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=rockype...@earthlink.net 42. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=rockype...@earthlink.net 43. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu 44. http://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/~db/0001/bsb00016889/images/inde 45. http://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/~db/0001/bsb00016889/images/inde 46. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 47. http://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/~db/0001/bsb00016889/images/index.html?id=00016889&fip=66.41.254.100&no=5&seite=44 48. http://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/~db/0001/bsb00016889/images/index.html?seite=7 49. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html