Why ' bitter'? A bit out of the blue and unecessary surely for a civil
discussion...............
I agree that nothing can be proved: but on the usual English civil law
basis of proof, the balance of probabilities favours the extended
basses at the upper octave. Has anyone actually played one of these
instruments in with a basses of length only around 90cm (as seems to be
depicted) and with plain gut (and no octave doubling as on the liuto
attiorbato or, indeed, as usually on the lower courses of the ordinary
5 course guitar)? - have they not reported on the dull thud compared
with the rest of the instrument's vibrant sound?
MH
--- On Sun, 19/7/09, Monica Hall <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
From: Monica Hall <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: [VIHUELA] Chitarra atiorbata/Guitarre theorbee
To: "Lex Eisenhardt" <eisenha...@planet.nl>
Cc: "Vihuelalist" <vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Date: Sunday, 19 July, 2009, 4:17 PM
I don't wish to get into a bitter argument over this. However there
are
just a few comments.
Lex said
Perhaps the wish to have a complete instrument was as much something
of
the 17th century. An imperfect instrument improved.
The obvious thing to do would have been to add a 6th course to the
guitar.
Even in today's world the 6 stringed instrument is capable of doing
most
things asked of it even by some of the most adventurous composers.
We may well ask why it took 150 years before the 6th course which was
standard for the lute and vihuela in the 16th century was restored to
the
guitar. Even Sanz and Murcia don't consider this as an option.
Aside from that there are a few things I would like to say about both
the
chitarra atiorbata and the guitarre theorbe.
1. We don't know very much about either of them. It is advisable
not to
jump to too many conclusions and to have an open mind when considering
the
evidence.
2. For Lex's benefit I would just say that this discussion has been
going on - and off - for a while. Also I had been pestering Gary Boye
to
produce this illustration of Granata - being a doubting Thomas - I
wanted to
be sure it had a guitar-shaped body rather than a lute shaped
body. He has
very kindly done so and spent some time discussing it and related
issues
helpfully with me.
3. This prompted me to take a closer look at the music. The music
in
the Gallot is of the utmost simplicity. Most of the pieces are a few
bars
long and the part writing less than basic. Granata's music seems more
sophisticated.
4. Two people have considered the music in the Gallot ms. - Donald
Gill
and Richard Pinnell - and arrived at different conclusions as to how it
was
strung. Of the two I have a higher regard for Donald Gill whom I know
has
studied this manuscript in more depth than anyone else and is an expert
of a
whole range of early plucked stringed instruments.
5. And finally - my own tentative conclusion at this stage is that
we are
talking about two different instruments. But I am planning to
transcribe
more of the music - not having a suitable instrument to play it on is a
handicap. And the idea of putting some of the information on my ning
page
was so that other people could comment on it - not to pre-empt any
discussion.
Monica
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lex Eisenhardt" <[1]eisenha...@planet.nl>
To: "Vihuelalist" <[2]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Sent: Sunday, July 19, 2009 9:43 AM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Murcia
> The volume of the sound of the plucked string of the five course
> guitar is low. To balance with that bass strings should better not
be
> too powerful. How long the extension should be would depend on the
> acoustic properties of the instrument. Continuo instruments like
the
> theorbo needed a strong bass to compete with ensembles. It is not
known
> if the guitarre theorbee from the Gallot Ms was designed for that
> purpose.
>
>
>
> We know at least that the theorbo was used in ensembles of which
the
> players were payed. Appearance of the guitarre theorbee is not
> reported.
>
>
>
> According to some writers from the 17th century (Sanz, Matteis) the
> guitar was an imperfect instrument. The broad use of bourdon tuning
> shows that opinions were by no means uniform.
>
>
>
> Lex
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: [1]Martyn Hodgson
>
> To: [2]Vihuelalist ; [3]Lex Eisenhardt
>
> Sent: Sunday, July 19, 2009 10:21 AM
>
> Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Murcia
>
>
> The whole point about extended basses is that they produce a
stronger
> (louder) sound than shorter strings - hence why they were invented
(by
> Picinnini?).
>
> I know of no study which has identified theorbo usage in the 17th
> century between 'amateur' and 'professional' (ie paid to perform)
> players. By the mid 18th century when the theorbo's
appearance/record
> became rarer use had dwindled (but seems to have continued in some
> operas) mostly 'orofessionals' played them (eg Conti).
>
> The use of re-entrant tuning seems to show that the Old Ones were
> perfectly satisfied with what some moderns may perceive as an
imperfect
> ('incomplete') instrument
>
> MH
>
> --
>
> References
>
> 1. mailto:[3]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
> 2. mailto:[4]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu
> 3. mailto:[5]eisenha...@planet.nl
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> [6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
--
References
1. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisenha...@planet.nl
2. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu
3. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
4. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu
5. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisenha...@planet.nl
6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
