Yes - that sums it up nicely. And as far as the 6/4 chords are concerned -
strumming them does effectively eliminate the odd effect of the 4th between
the two lowest parts. There are other chords which are also 6/4s as with
the 5-course instrument. In fact they are the same old chords without the
5th course. This G major chord is actually the original form of Chord A
in alfabeto with three open courses. This is how it is in the Cancionero
Bezon and Montesardo -
2nd, 3rd and 4th courses open, 1st course stopped at the 3rd fret and the
additional 5th course stopped at the 2nd fret.
Later books have the 2nd course stopped at the 3rd fret.
As ever
Monica
----- Original Message -----
From: "michael.f...@notesinc.com" <michael.f...@notesinc.com>
To: "'Vihuelalist'" <vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2010 4:49 PM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar
This is very good and lively discussion! I have just a few things to add.
First, we do have a strong indication that the 4-course guitar *was*
strummed, at least in Spain by 1611. Sebastian de Covarrubias Horozco's
"Tesoro de la lengua castellana o española" has an article on the guitar,
which he defines as have 5 or 4 courses. His article on the "Vigüela"
laments its decline in favor of the guitar with the famous quote: ". . .
ahora la guitarra no es más que un cencerro, tan fácil de tañer,
especialmente en lo rasgado, que no hay mozo de caballos que no sea músico
de guitarra." (. . . now the guitar is no more than a cowbell, so easy to
play, especially when strummed, that there is hardly a stable boy who is
not
a guitar player.)
I cannot find any strumming indications in Phalèse 1570. However, repeated
4-note chords in some chanson intabulations strongly suggest that
technique.
The "Braye Ms.", now called the "Osborn Ms." or "Osborn Collection
Commonplace-book" (c. 1560) is discussed and transcribed in John M. Ward,
"Sprightly & Cheerful Musick: Notes on the cittern, gittern, and guitar in
16th- and 17th-century England", Lute Society Journal XXI, 1979-81. The
"article" takes up the entire book, and I believe it is still available
from
The Lute Society. A fascinating read! In the Osborn Ms. there are several
pieces comprised mostly or entirely of repeated chords. (See, for example,
"20. The [?Fantaze], Ward, p. 128.) Ward believes that these passages were
to be strummed, and it seems to me entirely impossible to interpret them
othewise.
Finally a personal suggestion: If the 4-course guitar is tuned to E, many
pieces are in G with an inherent problem with the final chord: The open
low
D string on the 4th course produces a 6-4 chord when plucked, with the 5th
sounding prominently below the key note G (which "should" be in the bass).
Possibly, people didn't care, or there was a popular undocumented
solution.
I believe that a good solution for these and other chords with the same
basic problem is simply to strum the chord (perhaps with the thumb).
Effectively, the voicing of the chord is thereby obscured (and with it the
transgression of the harmony/counterpoint rule).
Michael
michael.f...@notesinc.com
________________________
There is a facsimile of the Phalese book published by Tree Editions -
modestly priced at 36 euros.
There is no indication in the tablature that the chords should be
strummed.
It does however
seem to me to be self-evident that at least some passages must be
strummed.
I don't
see how else you could conveniently play them. The same is true of the
Braye ms. I haven't seen the
Giesbert - but it seems to me perfectly reasonable to indicate that the
chords should be strummed if the edition is for classical guitarists.
The other thing is that many of the chords are actually the same as
standard
alfabeto chords without the fifth course. The fifth course was added
later. There is clearly a continuous tradition.
Some of the pieces in one of the Newsidler books do have an
instruction "mit streichen" in pieces which have 6-part chords. I don't
think it is unreasonable to assume that even the noble lute was sometimes
strummed.
But because the 4-course guitar was perhaps more of a popular instrument,
more likely to be played by amateurs, strumming may have been considered
more appropriate. There is the famous quotation which I can't actually
quote verbatim but says to effect "All the world's a gitterning and the
lute
is quite laid off etc..".
I don't think that treating the text as if it were holy writ is helpful.
Just because there are no specific indications in the sources as to how
the
chords should be played doesn't mean that they must be played in what I
would call "lute style". This is an assumption. Quite possible full
chords were strummed on the lute too. There is no indication either way.
Monica
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stuart Walsh" <s.wa...@ntlworld.com>
To: "Monica Hall" <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
Cc: "Vihuelalist" <vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2010 10:46 AM
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar
Monica Hall wrote:
You mention the fact that the printed sources of 4-course music don't
indicate that the chords should be strummed. But there is no reason
why
they shouldn't be.
The guitar books are printed using the same font of type as lute books
printed by Leroy and Ballard & co and are printed in the same way.
Either they didn't have anything suitable in the font of type to
indicate
right hand technique or they didn't think it was necessary. There are
lots of places where repeated chords seem obviously intended to be
strummed.
Monica, are you saying that the 1570 publication of Phalèse and Bellère
has no indications of strumming either? Like Martyn, I've never seen
these
tablatures and, like Martyn, I have the 1970s Geisbert two volumes of
transcriptions for modern guitar. Geisbert gives indications of strumming
in some of the pieces, so presumably he made it all up?
It might have been difficult to indicate strums in the way that music was
set at that time but even the four-course guitar music in the Braye MS -
which has loads of block chords - doesn't have any indications of
strumming. Of course, absence of strumming indications doesn't mean that
players didn't use strums. Strumming might just have been expected as a
natural thing to do, given the nature of the instrument. (But then -
apart
from some precious French stuff from the following century anyway - why
was the 16th century lute not typically strummed too?). It might have
been
the case that strumming was an option but only by those with good taste,
or the complete opposite, as something only fit for peasants!
Stuart
One of the books - can't remember off hand which - also includes pieces
for the 4-course cittern which would have been played with a plectrum
and
therefore strummed. It would have been up to the player to decide
whether the strokes were up and down etc.
I have just got a copy of this manuscript copied in 1649 which belonged
to Monsier DuPille. This includes one of the guitar songs from
Moulinie's book. Moulinie hasn't indicated that the accompaniment
should be strummed but in the manuscript it is clear that it should be -
the note values are on the stave with tails up and down.
Haven't had time to go through the manuscript in detail but I think some
of the pieces may from the 4-course repertoire but up-graded for
5-course. All are clearly intended to be strummed.
Printed sources are constrained by what is practical. They certainly
don't give us the whole picture!
Monica
----- Original Message ----- From: "Stuart Walsh" <s.wa...@ntlworld.com>
To: "Eugene C. Braig IV" <brai...@osu.edu>
Cc: "'List LUTELIST'" <l...@cs.dartmouth.edu>; "'Vihuelalist'"
<vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 7:03 PM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar
Eugene C. Braig IV wrote:
Yes, I agree with all, especially regarding elaborating on brief dance
melodies or chord progressions. It's hard to guess what improvisation
on
guitar might have sounded like in the renaissance or baroque era.
It's
when
there is an abrupt change of style leaning heavily on
new-agey-sounding
suspensions, etc. that such improvisations can be distracting.
Best,
Eugene
I hope Massimo won't mind me including an example. Overall, he plays
very
beautifully and he adds strums, which, of course, are not in the
original
but which sound really appropriate and musical. And he uses some
strange
inegale at times too, which maybe what some people did or how he, as a
musician, hears the music.
(And in general, no doubt, all sorts of improvisation was used all over
the place)
What bothers me are these rather fay little vamps which he uses in a
number of the dances. Here is an example: many people will know this
little Branle de Champaigne. Ex1 is the opening - four bars of the
little
vamp figure and then the actual music. At the end of the Branle the
vamp
figure returns as a sort of interlude into a repeat (Ex2). It's a very
attractive little dance and it's very short and the vamp makes it into
something bigger. But it seems, to me anyway, really quite out of
character. Surely an improvised second run through (or a written out
'plus
diminueé') would surely be better. Or play a set of dances. Or just
play
it twice.
opening (Ex1)
http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/ex1.mp3
middle Ex2)
http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/ex2.mp3
Stuart
-----Original Message-----
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
Behalf Of Chris Despopoulos
Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 12:23 PM
To: Eugene C. Braig IV; List LUTELIST; Vihuelalist
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar
Having just attended classes on the Baroque Guitar at La Semana de
Musica Antigua in Gijon, Spain...
Eduardo Eguez pointed out that the Sanz manuscript is a book of
ensenyanza... that is, you're learning the pieces. Most
certainly,
any player above the beginner level would have taken these as
suggestions, and would have improvised on these themes. That was
how
I
took Eduardo's message on that front, anyway. Yes, there's music
that
is composed to the fullest extent, but Sanz (at least) seems to
have
made illustrations more so than compositions, per se. It may be
that
most of the existing guitar works are intended to be taken with a
similar grain of salt? (Still thinking about that...)
I have noticed a relatively recent movement in terms of Baroque
guitar
performance that tends toward improvisation. Xavier Diaz Latorre
does
this wonderfully, I think.
In the same festival I attended a series of classes on
disminuacion
and
ornamentacion. Again, the idea was that melodic lines were meant
to
include the addition of passing phrases from one note to another,
and/or ornamentation -- all at the discretion of the performer.
In
a
word, improvisation. And again, I notice that players are
achieving
this today. Interestingly, we had another set of classes that
covered
a flame war between Monteverdi and Artusi, where Artusi complained
that
Monteverti's dissonances would be fine in the context of
improvisation,
but a serious composition should not have such things. Then back
to
the improvisation class where we saw an example of Monteverdi
writing
a
series of disminuaciones and ornamentaciones in a singer's part --
to
be performed exactly as written! Ostensibly, they were to "sound"
improvised???
And of course, there's continuo, which is essentially structured
improvisation.
I think the bottom line is, there were lots of cases where
improvisation was appropriate, and lots where it wasn't. In other
words, um... er... Well, you know...
cud
__________________________________________________________________
From: Eugene C. Braig IV <brai...@osu.edu>
To: List LUTELIST <l...@cs.dartmouth.edu>; Vihuelalist
<vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Sent: Fri, July 30, 2010 11:39:51 AM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar
Such improvised indulgences seem to me to find home amongst a
greater
proportion of 4- and 5-course guitarists (Lonardi, Lislevand,
Ferries,
etc.)
than lutenists or players of modern classical or early 6-string
guitars. I
wonder why that is. Sometimes it sounds quite nice, but is
sometimes
a
bit
distracting.
Eugene
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [1]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
[mailto:[2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
> Behalf Of Stuart Walsh
> Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 11:20 AM
> To: Eugene C. Braig IV
> Cc: 'List LUTELIST'; 'Vihuelalist'
> Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar
>
> Eugene C. Braig IV wrote:
> > Craddock's recording is now super-hard to find. I would love
to
have a
> > copy, but can't seem to track one down at a reasonable price.
> >
> > Also look into:
> >
> > Lonardi, Massimo. 2006. Comienc,a la Musica para Guitarra.
Stradivarius.
> >
>
> Massimo plays very well indeed but for many of the little dances
he
adds
> a sort of intro/outro (and sometimes interlude) vamp. Listeners
who
> didn't know the originals might have thought these
(modern-sounding,
> folksy) vamps were in the original tablatures . I can see that
he's
> trying to frame them and make them special but I've often
thought
of
> actually taking the trouble to edit them out.
>
>
> Stuart
>
>
>
>
> > Marincola, Federico. 1994. Pieces pour Luth/Pieces pour
Guitare.
Disques
> > Pierre Verany.
> >
> > Smith, Hopkinson. 1992. Alonso Mudarra: Tres Libros de Musica
en
Cifras
> Para
> > Vihuela. Auvidis/Astree.
> >
> > The former is all 4-course guitar and quite nice to my ears.
The
latter
> two
> > features mostly lute or vihuela, but include a fair number of
tasty
> guitar
> > solos and are also quite nice. ...Not to mention Jocelyn's
fine
recent
> > effort: [3]http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/nelsonbartram. Even
Anthony
Rooley
> > indulged in a little 4-course guitar on Renaissance Fantasias,
but
only
> a
> > little.
> >
> > Best,
> > Eugene
> >
> >
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: [4]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
[mailto:[5]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
> >> Behalf Of Laura Maschi
> >> Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2010 11:05 PM
> >> To: Bruno Correia
> >> Cc: List LUTELIST
> >> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Four c. guitar
> >>
> >> Also check michael Craddock wonderful recording released
around
2008...
> >>
> >>
> >> Enviado desde mi iPod
> >>
> >> El 29/07/2010, a las 23:40, Bruno Correia
<[6]bruno.l...@gmail.com>
> >> escribio:
> >>
> >>
> >>> I think John Williams never read anything about the history
of
his
> >>> own
> >>> instrument. Check at 1:38. Couldn't believe he said that,
specially
> >>> after watching those great videos by Jocelyn Nelson.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
[1][7]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_LNU1-s4BE&feature=related
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>>
> >>> References
> >>>
> >>> 1.
[8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_LNU1-s4BE&feature=related
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> To get on or off this list see list information at
> >>> [9]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> >>>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
--
References
1. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
2. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
3. http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/nelsonbartram
4. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
5. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
6. mailto:bruno.l...@gmail.com
7. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_LNU1-s4BE&feature=related
8. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_LNU1-s4BE&feature=related
9. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
