I call them stroke marks. Basically you can strum a chord which may
include 5, 4, 3, and very occasionally 2 courses. But single notes are
pucked. In Foscarini stroke marks sometimes mean you play a single note.
Because he is extremely inconsistent I think there are also situations where
he puts stroke marks under chords in tablature which consist of only two or
three notes although they are intended to be played pizzicato..... The
"chord" which Lex has made such a song and dance about which precedes the
I+ on the first line in the passacacaglia on p.32 and in the Pedruil I think
could be played pizzicato.
The point I am trying to make is that he does not always make a clear
distinction between the two different styles of playing. I think this is
also true of the early source.
Nobody sat down and invented the perfect system which everyone then used
entirely consistently. You have to think outside the box.
That will have to do tonight. I'll try and look at the Gallot tomorrow.
Monica
----- Original Message -----
From: "Martyn Hodgson" <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
To: "Monica Hall" <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
Cc: "Vihuelalist" <vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Sent: Saturday, September 04, 2010 5:59 PM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance - More objections
Eh! - you mean you now agree that the slashes (what you call 'stroke'
marks) might equally mean discriminatory strumming (as I call it) as
well as just single notes - as you seemed to be saying was the case?
Also re this technique and cllear examples of use see my recent mailing
on de Gallot etc (not responded to, yet.....)
Martyn
--- On Sat, 4/9/10, Monica Hall <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
From: Monica Hall <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance - More
objections
To: "Martyn Hodgson" <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
Cc: "Vihuelalist" <vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Date: Saturday, 4 September, 2010, 17:51
Well - at last it seems we are on the same wave length!
I assume by slashes you mean stroke marks.
Monica
----- Original Message ----- From: "Martyn Hodgson"
<[1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
To: "Monica Hall" <[2]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
Cc: "Vihuelalist" <[3]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Sent: Saturday, September 04, 2010 5:45 PM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance - More objections
>
> Dear Monica,
> I've no problem with this - it's that I had understood you were
> asserting that these slashes NEVER meant strums/brushes - whereas I
> think they may depending on context (and I suppose personal
> inclination)
> Martyn
> PS I dunno why you think I'd continue a discussion with Lex off
list.
> The whole point about this forum is that it allows views to be
publicly
> aired and open to any critique and can certainly concentrate the
> mind.......missing out a colon can be catastrophic for example
> --- On Sat, 4/9/10, Monica Hall <[4]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
>
> From: Monica Hall <[5]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
> Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance - More
objections
> To: "Martyn Hodgson" <[6]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
> Cc: "Vihuelalist" <[7]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> Date: Saturday, 4 September, 2010, 17:21
>
> No - that is not what Foscarini means in Rule 5.
> You have to look at the example which Fosco refers to - the
Corrente
> detta
> la Favorita on p.60.
> On the first line you will see H3 with a 6 beside it and underneath
> there is
> a
> down stroke and an upstroke.
> What you are supposed to play here is in tablature...
> 3 3 c c
> 5 5 g g
> 5 5 c c
> 6 5 f e
> 3 3 g g
> D U
> In other words you are inserting a suspended 4th into the first
chord
> and
> resolving it onto the 3rd in the second.
> This notational device occurs over and over again in the music and
is
> perfectly clear. What Fosco means is that you should be able to
hear
> the
> dissonance and its resolution. Both chords should be played in
full.
> I can't find the message but I think Lex referred to another
slightly
> different situation in the Aria della Fulia variata on p.23.
> This is on the third line down where you see the second letter
> C. There
> are two down strokes under the C, then the figure 3 on the first
course
> with
> an upstroke followed by another down stroke mark.
> In this instance you would play chord C twice. The third time you
> would
> substitute the 3 (G) for the 2 (F#) on the first course and then
> repeat the
> proper chord C again.
> What you play is
> C C 0 C
> 0
> 2
> 3
> 3
> The note G is an upper auxiliary note which is also the 4th
resolving
> onto
> the 3rd in the final chord.. It could be played as a single note
or
> included in the chord.
> In both these examples the note G does have some harmonic
implications
> - in
> the first example it must resolve downwards. In the second it
should
> either resolve downwards or if it is a passing note rather than an
> auxiliary
> note it should rise to A. (At least it should go somewhere).
> The other situation which Lex referred to which is on p.32 is
really
> covered by Foscarini's rule 6 - which I wont quote in full but
refers
> to passages basically in 3 or 4 parts. Fosco says that you should
> only play the notes written. As there are strum marks you would
have
> to include an open course in some instances but this doesn't mean
that
> you have to do so indiscriminately.
> I wont attempt to explain the Pedruil passage but it doesn't make
much
> sense whichever way you look at it.
> Lex must know all this as he plays some of the pieces. If he
doesn't
> he should. The reason why I got so cross with him was that he was
> trying to argue that Rule 5 isn't clear. It is.
> I haven't sent the message to him as he has left the list. Feel
free
> to forward it to him if you want to discuss it with him but count
me
> out.
> Regards
> Monica
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Martyn Hodgson"
> <[1][8]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
> To: "Lex Eisenhardt" <[2][9]eisenha...@planet.nl>; "Monica Hall"
> <[3][10]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
> Cc: "Vihuelalist" <[4][11]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> Sent: Saturday, September 04, 2010 9:22 AM
> Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance - More objections
> >
> > Dear Monica,
> >
> > What's the point you're trying to make by repeating this:
> >
> > 'And if there is a number following after [the letter] either
> above or
> > > below, you should ensure that this can be heard clearly and
> > distinctly,
> > > whether the stroke is made up or down. If after any such
number
> you
> > find
> > > another stroke WITHOUT a letter, this stroke belongs to the
> > preceding
> > > letter which should be repeated. This rule applies in
general to
> > many of
> > > the pieces that you may play, and among others it is
> appropriate to
> > the
> > > "Corrente, dette la Favorita" found on page 60.'
> >
> > Surely it reads that he expects a strum ('stroke up or down')
but
> that
> > one needs to ensure the melody is heard through any
accompanying
> > harmont. ie precisely what I'm trying to put across to
> > you..................
> >
> > Martyn
> > --- On Fri, 3/9/10, Monica Hall <[5][12]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
wrote:
> >
> > From: Monica Hall <[6][13]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
> > Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance
> > To: "Lex Eisenhardt" <[7][14]eisenha...@planet.nl>
> > Cc: "Vihuelalist" <[8][15]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> > Date: Friday, 3 September, 2010, 12:23
> >
> > > The strict application of Foscarini's fourth rule leads to
new
> > questions.
> > > In
> > > many places we first have a chord (for example A major =
letter
> I),
> > then
> > > comes a single 3 on the second line of the tab (the note d')
and
> then
> > the
> > > strumming continues while there is nothing in the tab. The
most
> > obvious
> > > solution is to return to the original chord, but it is
unclear.
> If
> > the
> > > original chord should be strummed in full again, what about
the
> > single
> > > note?
> > The fourth rule does not apply in this circumstance. It is
> covered by
> > Foscarini's Fifth rule.
> > And if there is a number following after [the letter] either
above
> or
> > below, you should ensure that this can be heard clearly and
> > distinctly,
> > whether the stroke is made up or down. If after any such
number
> you
> > find
> > another stroke WITHOUT a letter, this stroke belongs to the
> preceding
> > letter which should be repeated. This rule applies in general
to
> many
> > of
> > the pieces that you may play, and among others it is
appropriate
> to
> > the
> > "Corrente, dette la Favorita" found on page 60.
> > I do wish you lot would actually read these introductions......
> > >> This really excludes the idea that all the passing notes
should
> > always be
> > >> accomapnied the chords even if this is possible.
> > >
> > > Not always, but in certain situations.
> > The situations are clearly covered in Foscarini's two rules.
> > >
> > > By the way, a situation which is very similar to the ex 5
from my
> > article
> > > (Lute 47) can be found halfway the fourth line of Foscarini's
p.
> 32.
> > All
> > > strummed, and probably including all courses.
> > It also occurs on the first line preceding Chord I+ without a
> stroke
> > mark.
> > Who is to say which is intended given the inconsistency of
Fosco's
> > notation.
> > In both contexts a 3-part chord makes
> > more sense. But we have gone over all this before.
> > >> This is a very obscure source and there are different ways
of
> > >> interpreting it. I wouldn't myself regard it as good
scholarly
> > practice
> > >> to jump to conclusions about anything in it.
> > >
> > > Then don't
> > I am not doing - I think there at least three different ways of
> > interpreting
> > the passage. I was merely suggesting an alternative way of
looking
> at
> > things
> > and have never committed myself to one view or the other. It
seems
> > that you
> > have as you haven't even suggested the possiblity that some of
the
> > chords
> > might include fewer than five courses (6/4s excepted).
> > >
> > > I will have to repeat that I have never intended to say that
> barre's
> > did
> > > not exist. But it seems they were avoided in the _early_
stage,
> when
> > the
> > > guitar and its stringing were emerging.
> > Which early stage? How do you know? Even the table of chords
in
> the
> > Cancionero de Bezon includes chords G, H, M and possibly K
although
> it
> > is
> > difficult to read.
> > >> Moreover all of the songs are in keys which have no key
> signature or
> > one
> > >> flat so that some of the chords are not much use any. The
> songs
> > are not
> > >> necessarily intended to be performed at written pitch. The
> whole
> > point
> > >> of Amat's tables etc. is to enable the player to transpose
to a
> > pitch
> > >> that suites the singer. This would involve the other
chords.
> > >
> > > The table is of the sort of pedantry which we often find in
> tutors.
> > With which you no doubt are very familiar but dont understand
how
> to
> > use.
> > Monica
> > > To get on or off this list see list information at
> > >
[1][9][16]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> >
> > --
> >
> > References
> >
> > 1.
[10][17]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> >
>
> --
>
> References
>
> 1. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=[18]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
> 2. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=[19]eisenha...@planet.nl
> 3. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=[20]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
> 4. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=[21]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu
> 5. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=[22]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
> 6. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=[23]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
> 7. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=[24]eisenha...@planet.nl
> 8. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=[25]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu
> 9. [26]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 10. [27]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
--
References
1. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
2. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
3. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu
4. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
5. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
6. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
7. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu
8. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
9. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=eisenha...@planet.nl
10. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
11. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu
12. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
13. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
14. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=eisenha...@planet.nl
15. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu
16. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
17. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
18. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
19. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=eisenha...@planet.nl
20. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
21. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu
22. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
23. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
24. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=eisenha...@planet.nl
25. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu
26. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
27. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
