Dear Monica, Further to my last I've now got round to reading the rest of yr email. And can thus respond to the matters you raised
Firsly when you wrote "it In the first bar of the Balletto Polacco on p.19 it is physically impossible to include the 5 following G3 in the chord as you repeat it and it is impossible to play a trill on Chord G anyway. It is just possible to include the 8 in chord M5 using a 4th finger hinge barre if you really must. The 8 following Chord H5 is to be included in the first chord and resolved in the second. I think Fosco does have some logic to his notation and is clearly indicating the way his music should be played. But it is quite different from Martyn's" REPLY: 1. It's only physically impossible if you think all 5 courses must ALWAYS be strummed/brushed - surely other sources tell us this was not always the case: Bartolotti for example who, whilst of course being later, describes partial chords and this MAY have been an earlier assumed practice. Thus to play the 5 with the G chord you use the fourth finger to stop the 5 and just upstroke the highest 3 courses (what I call 'partial' or 'discriminatory' play). BUT I agree the trill On 5 couldn't be played this way so I'm quite happy to agree this single note is plucked! 2. Your other examples do indeed show how possible it is to play this with strums. And, yes, of course we assume the 43 cadence on H5 - strummed is good here. 3. The general point in introducing this particular piece as an example was to illustrate that Foscarini was quite able to notate single notes with just flags without recourse to additional unecessary notation (the strokes/slashes). It continues to intrigue me.....see below Following on from 3, your other comment is " When the passing notes are between strummed alfabeto chords like this he puts in stroke marks to separate the single notes from the chords." REPLY 4. In response to this let me draw your attention to another passage I mentioned earlier: the sequence at the beginning of the penultimate line of the Balletto starting with the + chord. Here he seems quite able to accurately notate a single plucked note inbetween alfabeto chords without this additional (redundant) slash. Your comment above would have required him to insert another stroke/slash for the single note..... All good stuff - I'm enjoying playing him Martyn --- On Wed, 8/9/10, Martyn Hodgson <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote: From: Martyn Hodgson <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: [Vihuela]Foscarini's notation To: "Vihuelalist" <vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>, "Monica Hall" <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> Date: Wednesday, 8 September, 2010, 7:57 Good to hear you again Monica. As you'll not be surprised to know, I suggest there is a fourth option to the list of possible reasons for F writing strokes/slashes: 1. He intends the notes to be played alternating thumb and finger 2. He intends them to be played "dedillo" 3. He is simply imposing the stroke pattern on the notes which would be appropriate if the alfabeto chord were simply to be repeated without passing notes. 4. He intends a partial (discriminatory) strum - if not in La Favorita then in other pieces in the collection and as found in other sources (such as the de Gallot looked at earlier). regards Martyn --- On Tue, 7/9/10, Monica Hall <[1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote: From: Monica Hall <[2]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> Subject: [VIHUELA] [Vihuela]Foscarini's notation To: "Vihuelalist" <[3]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu> Date: Tuesday, 7 September, 2010, 17:32 As I have in fact received some of these message off the list it seems inevitable that I should rejoin to put the record straight as I think you are barking up the wrong tree. In the first bar of the Balletto Polacco on p.19 it is physically impossible to include the 5 following G3 in the chord as you repeat it and it is impossible to play a trill on Chord G anyway. It is just possible to include the 8 in chord M5 using a 4th finger hinge barre if you really must. The 8 following Chord H5 is to be included in the first chord and resolved in the second. I think Fosco does have some logic to his notation and is clearly indicating the way his music should be played. But it is quite different from Martyn's. When the passing notes are between strummed alfabeto chords like this he puts in stroke marks to separate the single notes from the chords. This is also necessary because he needs to distinguish between what appear to be single notes which are to be included in the chord like the 8 following the H5 and those which are not to be inserted. This is how music entirely in alfabeto is notated. Otherwise he would need to put a note value above the stave for each alternate single note. This dual system is not because Foscarini does not know how to use his tablature. Rather he is combining two different types of tablature logically in music which is in mixed style at a very early stage in its development. In the corrente on p.60 it is impossible to include the passing notes in the chords in at least two places. There are at least three reasons why Fosco may have put in up and down strokes on the first line which have nothing to do with strumming the chords. 1. He intends the notes to be played alternating thumb and finger 2. He intends them to be played "dedillo" 3. He is simply imposing the stroke pattern on the notes which would be appropriate if the alfabeto chord were simply to be repeated without passing notes. I think the last is the most likely. Finally the main reason for wanting to drop out of the discussion at this point is because it is a constant distraction to keep receiving E-mails which need to be responded to fairly promptly if the discussion is to follow a logical course. This often involves checking sources and other files for information and spending a great deal of time trying to explain very complex issues without the aid of illustrations or musical examples. I prefer to deal with my E-mails once a day so don't expect to hear from me again until tomorrow. A complete translation of Fosco's introduction with illustrations etc. is on my webpage - [1]www.monicahall.co.uk which makes it all the more pointless to go over it again. I am currently working on the introduction to Corbetta's 1639 book which sheds a lot more light on how guitar notation developed. I have temporarily put on my page at [2]www.earlyguitar.ning.com the passage which deals with the same situations which you find in Foscarini with examples of Corbetta's notation. It is in the section for Scores - at the top of the list. Finally in one of my previous messages I refered to the Bologna manuscript which includes some alfabeto songs and gave the date as 1680s. It should of course have been 1580s. Monica ----- Original Message ----- From: [3]Martyn Hodgson To: [4]Stuart Walsh Cc: [5]Monica Hall ; [6]Vihuelalist Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 12:26 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Why two notations for the same play? Thanks for this Stuart. I was rather surprised by Monica; particularly since I've frequently praised her work and we were, so I thought, simply seeking a scholarly explanation to fit all the principal evidence. As you say, misunderstandings can easily arise during a long thread by not reading everything written. The problem still remains as summarised below and best seen by looking at the Balletto Pollaca on p.19 (moved on from La Favorita) where 'single' note passages are notated in two distinct ways which I suggest may indicate different ways of playing and Monica believes are always meant to be played exactly the same (if I understand her aright). I'm not at all convinced that the use of different notation to achieve an identical outcome is a result of Foscarini not understanding how to write his tablature. Also note particularly in the Balletto Pollaca that both halves start off with strummed chords with some single passing notes with these slashes/strokes and then half way through each half we have passages of quavers notated by ordinary tablature flags. Foscarini also seems quite able to make other subtle distinctions in his tablature elsewhere in this (and other) pieces. For example, look at the penultimate line: we get a sequence from the + chord (down/quaver up strum) plucked quaver open 4th course etc, but after the D chord the first quaver is plucked not strummed. In short I think this sort of sophistication indicates he knew what he was doing and why I believe we still need to understand why he notates some passages differently from others if they were to be executed in exactly the same way. regards -- References 1. [1][4]http://www.monicahall.co.uk/ 2. [2][5]http://www.earlyguitar.ning.com/ 3. mailto:[3][6]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk 4. mailto:[4][7]s.wa...@ntlworld.com 5. mailto:[5][8]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 6. mailto:[6][9]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu To get on or off this list see list information at [7][10]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [11]http://www.monicahall.co.uk/ 2. [12]http://www.earlyguitar.ning.com/ 3. [13]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co .uk 4. [14]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com 5. [15]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 6. [16]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.e du 7. [17]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 2. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 3. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu 4. http://www.monicahall.co.uk/ 5. http://www.earlyguitar.ning.com/ 6. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk 7. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com 8. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 9. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu 10. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 11. http://www.monicahall.co.uk/ 12. http://www.earlyguitar.ning.com/ 13. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk 14. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com 15. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 16. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu 17. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html