Dear Monica,
Further to my last I've now got round to reading the rest of yr email.
And can thus respond to the matters you raised
Firsly when you wrote
"it In the first bar of the Balletto Polacco on p.19 it is physically
impossible to include the 5 following G3 in the chord as you repeat
it and it is impossible to play a trill on Chord G anyway. It is
just possible to include the 8 in chord M5 using a 4th finger hinge
barre
if you really must. The 8 following Chord H5 is to be included in
the first chord and resolved in the second. I think Fosco does have
some logic to his notation and is clearly indicating the way his
music should be played. But it is quite different from Martyn's"
REPLY:
1. It's only physically impossible if you think all 5 courses must
ALWAYS be strummed/brushed - surely other sources tell us this was not
always the case: Bartolotti for example who, whilst of course being
later, describes partial chords and this MAY have been an earlier
assumed practice. Thus to play the 5 with the G chord you use the
fourth finger to stop the 5 and just upstroke the highest 3 courses
(what I call 'partial' or 'discriminatory' play). BUT I agree the
trill On 5 couldn't be played this way so I'm quite happy to agree this
single note is plucked!
2. Your other examples do indeed show how possible it is to play this
with strums. And, yes, of course we assume the 43 cadence on H5 -
strummed is good here.
3. The general point in introducing this particular piece as an example
was to illustrate that Foscarini was quite able to notate single notes
with just flags without recourse to additional unecessary notation (the
strokes/slashes). It continues to intrigue me.....see below
Following on from 3, your other comment is " When the passing notes are
between strummed alfabeto chords like this he puts in stroke marks to
separate the single notes from the chords."
REPLY
4. In response to this let me draw your attention to another passage I
mentioned earlier: the sequence at the beginning of the penultimate
line of the Balletto starting with the + chord. Here he seems quite
able to accurately notate a single plucked note inbetween alfabeto
chords without this additional (redundant) slash. Your comment above
would have required him to insert another stroke/slash for the single
note.....
All good stuff - I'm enjoying playing him
Martyn
--- On Wed, 8/9/10, Martyn Hodgson <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
From: Martyn Hodgson <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: [Vihuela]Foscarini's notation
To: "Vihuelalist" <vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>, "Monica Hall"
<mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
Date: Wednesday, 8 September, 2010, 7:57
Good to hear you again Monica.
As you'll not be surprised to know, I suggest there is a fourth
option
to the list of possible reasons for F writing strokes/slashes:
1. He intends the notes to be played alternating thumb and
finger
2. He intends them to be played "dedillo"
3. He is simply imposing the stroke pattern on the notes which
would
be appropriate if the alfabeto chord were simply to be repeated
without
passing notes.
4. He intends a partial (discriminatory) strum - if not in La
Favorita then in other pieces in the collection and as found in
other
sources (such as the de Gallot looked at earlier).
regards
Martyn
--- On Tue, 7/9/10, Monica Hall <[1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
From: Monica Hall <[2]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: [VIHUELA] [Vihuela]Foscarini's notation
To: "Vihuelalist" <[3]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Date: Tuesday, 7 September, 2010, 17:32
As I have in fact received some of these message off the list it
seems
inevitable that I should rejoin to put the record straight as I
think
you are barking up the wrong tree.
In the first bar of the Balletto Polacco on p.19 it is physically
impossible to include the 5 following G3 in the chord as you
repeat
it
and it is impossible to play a trill on Chord G anyway. It is
just
possible to include the 8 in chord M5 using a 4th finger hinge
barre
if
you really must. The 8 following Chord H5 is to be included in
the
first chord and resolved in the second.
I think Fosco does have some logic to his notation and is clearly
indicating the way his music should be played. But it is quite
different from Martyn's. When the passing notes are between
strummed
alfabeto chords like this he puts in stroke marks to separate
the single notes from the chords. This is also necessary because
he
needs to distinguish between what appear to be single notes which
are
to be included in the chord like the 8 following the H5 and those
which
are not to be inserted. This is how music entirely in alfabeto
is
notated. Otherwise he would need to put a note value above the
stave
for each alternate single note.
This dual system is not because Foscarini does not know how to
use
his
tablature. Rather he is combining two different types of
tablature logically in music which is in mixed style at a very
early
stage in its development.
In the corrente on p.60 it is impossible to include the passing
notes
in the chords in at least two places. There are at least three
reasons
why Fosco may have put in up and down strokes on the first line
which
have nothing to do with strumming the chords.
1. He intends the notes to be played alternating thumb and
finger
2. He intends them to be played "dedillo"
3. He is simply imposing the stroke pattern on the notes which
would
be appropriate if the alfabeto chord were simply to be repeated
without
passing notes.
I think the last is the most likely.
Finally the main reason for wanting to drop out of the discussion
at
this point is because it is a constant distraction to keep
receiving
E-mails which need to be responded to fairly promptly if the
discussion
is to follow a logical course. This often involves checking
sources
and other files for information and spending a great deal of time
trying to explain very complex issues without the aid of
illustrations
or musical examples. I prefer to deal with my E-mails once a
day
so
don't expect to hear from me again until tomorrow.
A complete translation of Fosco's introduction with illustrations
etc.
is on my webpage - [1]www.monicahall.co.uk which makes it all
the
more
pointless to go over it again. I am currently working on the
introduction to Corbetta's 1639 book which sheds a lot more light
on
how guitar notation developed. I have temporarily put on my
page
at
[2]www.earlyguitar.ning.com the passage which deals with the same
situations which you find in Foscarini with examples of
Corbetta's
notation. It is in the section for Scores - at the top of the
list.
Finally in one of my previous messages I refered to the Bologna
manuscript which includes some alfabeto songs and gave the date
as
1680s. It should of course have been 1580s.
Monica
----- Original Message -----
From: [3]Martyn Hodgson
To: [4]Stuart Walsh
Cc: [5]Monica Hall ; [6]Vihuelalist
Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 12:26 PM
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Why two notations for the same play?
Thanks for this Stuart.
I was rather surprised by Monica; particularly since I've
frequently
praised her work and we were, so I thought, simply seeking a
scholarly
explanation to fit all the principal evidence. As you say,
misunderstandings can easily arise during a long thread by not
reading
everything written.
The problem still remains as summarised below and best seen by
looking
at the Balletto Pollaca on p.19 (moved on from La Favorita)
where
'single' note passages are notated in two distinct ways which I
suggest
may indicate different ways of playing and Monica believes are
always
meant to be played exactly the same (if I understand her aright).
I'm
not at all convinced that the use of different notation to
achieve
an
identical outcome is a result of Foscarini not understanding how
to
write his tablature.
Also note particularly in the Balletto Pollaca that both halves
start
off with strummed chords with some single passing notes with
these
slashes/strokes and then half way through each half we have
passages
of
quavers notated by ordinary tablature flags. Foscarini also
seems
quite able to make other subtle distinctions in his tablature
elsewhere
in this (and other) pieces. For example, look at the penultimate
line:
we get a sequence from the + chord (down/quaver up strum) plucked
quaver open 4th course etc, but after the D chord the first
quaver
is
plucked not strummed. In short I think this sort of
sophistication
indicates he knew what he was doing and why I believe we still
need
to
understand why he notates some passages differently from others
if
they were to be executed in exactly the same way.
regards
--
References
1. [1][4]http://www.monicahall.co.uk/
2. [2][5]http://www.earlyguitar.ning.com/
3. mailto:[3][6]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
4. mailto:[4][7]s.wa...@ntlworld.com
5. mailto:[5][8]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
6. mailto:[6][9]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu
To get on or off this list see list information at
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--
References
1. [11]http://www.monicahall.co.uk/
2. [12]http://www.earlyguitar.ning.com/
3.
[13]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co
.uk
4.
[14]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com
5.
[15]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
6.
[16]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.e
du
7. [17]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
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References
1. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
2. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
3. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu
4. http://www.monicahall.co.uk/
5. http://www.earlyguitar.ning.com/
6. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
7. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com
8. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
9. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu
10. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
11. http://www.monicahall.co.uk/
12. http://www.earlyguitar.ning.com/
13. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
14. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com
15. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
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