Dear Martin,
We are, I think, in complete agreement. As I said earlier, the modern,
almost general, useage of rolled chords is certainly to deprecated if
we are trying to recapture the sounds the Old Ones made and heard:
early sources certainly support this view.
It seems that the problem is that few seem to refer to early sources:
yet, if we are trying to recapture these the sounds, what's the
alternative?
Pressing this thread even further, might I criticise yet another common
aspect of some modern lute playing: that of emphasising, and even
'rolling' the final chord in a phrase. Certainly, by the 19th century
to end 'forte' was accepted practice but earlier a more vocally (ie
speech) related useage was the norm.
yrs t h f o
Martyn
--- On Sat, 5/3/11, Martin Shepherd <mar...@luteshop.co.uk> wrote:
From: Martin Shepherd <mar...@luteshop.co.uk>
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Playing full chords on the lute
wasRenaissance Guitar Podcast
To: "Lute List" <l...@cs.dartmouth.edu>, "Vihuelalist"
<vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Date: Saturday, 5 March, 2011, 12:58
Dear All,
Sorry to disappoint but I'm not sure what I was doing either! I'm
pretty sure I didn't do any backward raking with the first finger,
though this is something which I do like to do in some contexts (e.g.
in order of play, a6, c5, c4 with thumb, then c3, c4 with first finger,
then a2, a1 with second and third fingers - the "seven note six-note
chord"). Remember even when you play bass to treble, if you have
octaves (as I do on 5th and 6th courses) you get a lot of notes flying
around anyway.
I've always wondered about whether we should be "rolling" chords at all
- I think it's Robinson who talks about playing full chords "plump
together" or something like that. Le Roy describes playing 5-note
chords using either thumb or first finger for the extra note, and
six-note chords using both, but I don't remember whether he says
anything about simultaneity.
French 11-course music has lots of 4-note chords, which presumably were
played using "raking" of some sort rather than using the ring finger as
many do today.
Kapsberger (who didn't use the ring finger at all) marks appegiation on
chords in his theorbo music where the context seems impossible, even
for a rapidly rolled chord.
In general, I think modern players are much too inclined to roll
chords. In polyphonic music, it just seems wrong - you can just
imagine the choirmaster shouting at the tenors for being late, or the
basses for being ahead of the beat. But it takes a lot of skill to
play chords absolutely together while controlling the tone of the
individual voices - a project which is one of many I continue to
grapple with....
Best wishes,
Martin
On 05/03/2011 12:35, Martyn Hodgson wrote:
> Dear Stuart,
>
> Not commenting on this particular performance by Martin S but on
the
> new general point you raise regarding playing full chords on the
lute.
>
> You seem to be describing a style of playing chords which was
ubiqitous
> in the 17th century (later than in 3056) but not quite as you
report.
> The technique, as described best by Mace, is to start the upward
(ie
> towards one's head not upwards as in pitch) stroke with the index
(and
> followed with the second if you're so inclined) at the SAME time
as the
> bass note is 'pinched' (aka plucked) by the thumb.
>
> However I would agree that one rarely finds this style followed
by
> modern lutenists who invariably seem to prefer the 'rolled' chord
(a la
> Segovia) rather than that advocated by 17th century lutenists.
The
> 'rolled' chord is, of course, easier to play and I suppose comes
> naturally to those brought up on the modern guitar but seems to
have
> been generally used as a special effect ( 'arpege', 'separe') in
this
> period.
>
> Martyn
> --- On Sat, 5/3/11, Stuart Walsh<[1]s.wa...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
> From: Stuart Walsh<[2]s.wa...@ntlworld.com>
> Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Renaissance Guitar Podcast
> To: "Monica Hall"<[3]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
> Cc: "Martyn Hodgson"<[4]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>,
"Vihuelalist"
> <[5]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> Date: Saturday, 5 March, 2011, 9:52
>
> On 04/03/2011 17:25, Monica Hall wrote:
> >
> >> In the absence of direct evidence (ie music notated in
earlier
> sources)
> >> perhaps, members of the jury, we need to reflect on
circumstantial
> >> evidence; for example 15th century iconography showing
right
> arms/hands
> >> held in a more strumming than a plucking position..... ie
right
> hand
> >> not resting on the belly but held above the instrument -
maybe
> even
> >> higher up towards the neck/body join.
> >
> > But we also need to consider whether they are actually playing
with a
> plectrum. And Stuart seems to assume that as far as the lute is
> concerned chords were always played with the thumb and fingers
with a
> separate finger for each note. How many sources actually say
that
> this is so? As far as I am aware the ring finger was not much
used so
> how do you play 4, 5 and 6 part chords?
> Brushing up with the thumb or down with the i or i and m (or
both!).
> I'm not quite sure what Martin is doing on the first full chord
of his
> latest 'new piece of the month' but it must be a combination of
these.
> [1][6]http://www.luteshop.co.uk/month/1103.mp3
> Now we could be on the delightful topic of what counts as a
strum...
> This dignified Prelude that Martin plays is not a strumfest.
> Stuart
> >
> > Monica
> >
> >
> >>
> >> regards
> >>
> >> Martyn
> >> --- On Fri, 4/3/11, Stuart
Walsh<[2][7]s.wa...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> From: Stuart Walsh<[3][8]s.wa...@ntlworld.com>
> >> Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Renaissance Guitar Podcast
> >> To: "Martyn Hodgson"<[4][9]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
> >> Cc: "JocelynNelson"<[5][10]nels...@ecu.edu>,
"Vihuelalist"
> >> <[6][11]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> >> Date: Friday, 4 March, 2011, 10:56
> >>
> >> On 04/03/2011 09:14, Martyn Hodgson wrote:
> >> > Dear Stuart,
> >> >
> >> > I'm sorry to have to write like this, but did you not
follow
> the
> >> > postings I made when this was discussed earlier
(months ago)?
> - I
> >> > pointed out some specific strum signs in mid 16th
century 4
> >> course
> >> > books. Two examples I recall giving are La Seraphine
from
> >> Morlaye's 4th
> >> > book of 1552 and a Paduanne on page 16..........
> >> >
> >> > I think I understand that your personal preference is
to pluck
> >> all this
> >> > stuff but I wouldn't have thought this should outweigh
> >> considerations
> >> > of the actaul evidence. It really is pointless
responding to
> >> these
> >> > things only to find that months later it seems to have
not
> been
> >> read.
> >> Martyn,
> >> I think we all suffer from this! Many - well, several -
times I've
> >> noticed that later messages in a thread where I have
contributed
> have
> >> clearly missed what seemed to me a key point which I had
carefully
> >> explained (or so I thought). It's the nature of the medium.
And
> it's in
> >> the nature of the medium for threads to go off in different
> directions.
> >> I was interested to discuss/chat about the practice of
strumming
> chord
> >> sequences well before the 1550s (as Jocelyn seemed to be
> suggesting) -
> >> but it's not happening.
> >> I'm surprised that I'd completely forgotten that you had
given
> definite
> >> evidence for strumming in the four-course repertoire. There
is a
> news
> >> item today that scientists can now grow brain cells - so
I'm
> hoping to
> >> get hold of a few more.
> >> These are discussion lists, chat lists, lots of details,
> opinions.. and
> >> banter (which we Brits can't seem to master at all) and
open to
> all,
> >> experts and all.
> >> (I've played the four-course guitar in the past and I did
try
> strumming
> >> in places and have nothing against it)
> >> Stuart
> >> > Clearly, in these early days of strumming notation
we're not
> >> going to
> >> > find the sophisticated notation developed some 50
years later.
> In
> >> short
> >> > the evidence is that strumming was used at the time,
was used
> >> later and
> >> > thus may have been more common than you might wish.
> >> >
> >> > It's all rather reminiscent of earlier exchanges about
> Guerau's
> >> work of
> >> > 1694 for 5 course guitar: I see numerous comments to
the
> effect
> >> that
> >> > Guerau never indicated strumming in this collection
(even
> >> Jeffreys in
> >> > his comments to accompany the facsimile edition). But,
of
> course,
> >> he
> >> > does - one just needs to look hard enough (for those
who
> missed
> >> my
> >> > earlier see for example page 53 penultimate system
bars 1 to
> 4)
> >> > regards
> >> >
> >> > Martyn
> >> >
> >> >
> >> --
> >>
> [7]?>
> >
> >
>
> --
>
> References
>
> 1. [12]http://www.luteshop.co.uk/month/1103.mp3
> 2.
[13]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com
> 3.
[14]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com
> 4.
[15]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co
.uk
> 5.
[16]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=nels...@ecu.edu
> 6.
[17]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.e
du
> 7. mailto:?to=[18]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> [19]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
--
References
1. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com
2. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com
3. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
4. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
5. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
6. http://www.luteshop.co.uk/month/1103.mp3
7. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com
8. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com
9. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
10. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=nels...@ecu.edu
11. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
12. http://www.luteshop.co.uk/month/1103.mp3
13. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com
14. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com
15. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
16. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=nels...@ecu.edu
17. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
18. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
19. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
