We seem to have got a bit at cross purposes here - at least I have.

Agazzari's book was printed in 1607 as far as I am aware.   Only one year
after Montesardo. Foscarini's book in mixed style was printed in about 1630 and the version of which includes the continuo instructions was printed in 1640.

I think that it is unlikely that Agazzari was familiar with the chitarra spagnuola and had it in mind when he wrote his book. And he includes the chitarrina amongst the instruments which are not capable of reproducing the bass line. I can't see any reason for regarding it as a guitar at all. It was surely a small lute?


----- Original Message ----- From: "Martyn Hodgson" <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
To: "Vihuelalist" <vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>; <eisen...@planet.nl>; "R.
Mattes" <r...@mh-freiburg.de>
Sent: Monday, December 12, 2011 12:02 PM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re: Agazzari guitar
[was Re: Capona?]}

  Thank you for this - you must have missed my qualifying rider: 'albeit
  later sources' expressing that I am well aware these sources are not
  contemporary with Agazzari.  And of course you're quite right they do
  not constitute evidence of what Agazzari was aware.  The point is that
  plucking and strumming play was known throughout the early (Foscarini)
  and later 17th century so it is not possible on the available evidence
  to state that Aggazzari expected strumming alone - even if he allowed
  the guitar in basso continuo.......


  --- On Mon, 12/12/11, R. Mattes <r...@mh-freiburg.de> wrote:

    From: R. Mattes <r...@mh-freiburg.de>
    Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re: Agazzari
    guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
    To: "Martyn Hodgson" <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>, "Vihuelalist"
    <vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>, eisen...@planet.nl
    Date: Monday, 12 December, 2011, 11:44

  On Mon, 12 Dec 2011 10:28:52 +0000 (GMT), Martyn Hodgson wrote
  > Thanks Lex
  >    Maybe, but plucking to perform basso continuo on the guitar was
  > not   unknown if that's what Agazzi really meant (and I'm not
  > convinced we   can interpret his description as excluding BC using
  > full chords only -   eg strummed). Indeed, there are even some,
  >  allbeit later, sources
  >    (Matteis, Murcia) which give detailed instructions on playing
  > guitar BC   employing only the plucking (lute) style.
  Evidence? ;-) You aren't seriously taking those as reliable sources
  for Agazzari-time performance practise, aren't you? That's like
  using the film aof the Woodstock festival as a source for Johann
  Strauss (the IInd) walzer performance ...
  Just to be clear: I don't argue for banning guitars from early baroque
  continuo section, I jsut think we should be a little bit more careful
  in what sources we draw our information from.
  Cheers, Ralf Mattes
  > Corbetta in
  > his intabulated   vocal/instrumental settings is also fairly
  > restrained: using plucking   play with the occasional strummed chord.
  >    Martyn
  >    --- On Mon, 12/12/11, [1]eisen...@planet.nl
  <[2]eisen...@planet.nl> wrote:
  >      From: [3]eisen...@planet.nl <[4]eisen...@planet.nl>
  >      Subject: RE: Return to earlier question: {was Re: [VIHUELA] Re:
  >      Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
  >      To: "Martyn Hodgson" <[5]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>,
  >      <[6]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
  >      Date: Monday, 12 December, 2011, 9:55
  >    Hi,
  >    I'm not so sure about the 'etc.'
  >    It seems that Agazzari was thinking in terms of counterpoint, the
  > way   the guitar was used (strumming) does not fit in easily. In the
  > end,   there were more composers who were criticizing the use of the
  > guitar
  >    (Castaldi), at that time. I suppose that the plucked chitarrina
  >    be one of the melodic instruments on his list.
  >    Lex
  >    Van: Martyn Hodgson [mailto:[7]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk]
  >    Verzonden: ma 12-12-2011 10:24
  >    Aan: Vihuelalist; [8]eisen...@planet.nl
  >    Onderwerp: Return to earlier question: {was Re: [VIHUELA] Re:
  >    guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
  >    Thanks Lex.
  >    Yes, these sources are fairly well known - I'm just not sure
  >    terminoligy was sufficiently standardised at the time to draw
  >    unequivocal conclusions and the question as to whether Agazzari
  >    had Millioni's  four-course guitar, 'chitarrino'  in mind or the
  >    instrument required in the Conserto vaga is open.
  >    But to return to the original question: did Agrazzi purposefully
  >    the chitarra spagnuola from his list of instruments as suitable
  > for   basso continuo, or is it included in the etcetera...? I
  > suggested that   since he does not list the instrument amongst those
  > suitable for   embellishment then he did think it suitable for
  > continuo (if rarer than   the instruments he did singled out).
  >  However, I'm certainly not  advocating even more banging and
  > thrashing about as fashionable amongst   some modern continuo
  >    regards
  >    Martyn
  >    --
  > To get on or off this list see list information at
  > [9]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
  R. Mattes -
  Hochschule fuer Musik Freiburg



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